To think a woman isn't automatically lying if a rape trial verdict is not guilty?

[lilly0]

The courts in this country prosecute only on the basis of beyond reasonable doubt. In rape cases the forensic evidence might not be there and it turns into a case of he said she said.
Every other crime we don't seem to automatically call victims liars if the accused is found not guilty. Why is rape so different?

What happens if that accused “man” is your father, brother, husband, son?

My brother was accused of rape.

Of course I believed he was innocent and he was the victim of a malicious allegation. All of our family believed he was innocent as did his friends. We knew him and we knew he would never do that. He was always so protective of his female friends and relatives.

My brother is now in prison. He is a rapist. We know this for a fact because there was CCTV and he later admitted that he had done it.

I too find your argument a strange one. Are you under the impression rapists don't have family or something?

My mum still struggles with this. She is in denial. But my brother did hold that poor woman down and had sex with her when she didn't want it and there is no excuse for that.

I have name changed for this because I usually don't acknowledge I have a brother. My brother is dead to me.

Sorry deadtome

Doubt tuareg has any further comments anyway

Sorry to hear about your brother deadtome. I often think of the family of the man who raped my DD and the impact this will have on them too. Rape destroys the lives of many people so senseless and unfair to everyone involved whether directly or not. I have recently had lengthy and difficult conversation with my younger son about consent maybe as mothers we should all educate our sons more.

I think it's very telling that people are always more worried about their relative being falsely accused than they about the fact they're relative may rape someone. I suppose it is just like we would be more worried about a female relative being raped than about her making a malicious allegation.

As deadtome says above she never imagined her brother would do it, now she knows he has she wants nothing to do with him.

I will never excuse the actions of the man who raped my DD or anyone else for that matter.

One thing I think that is difficult to properly understand ( is the legal term: "Beyond reasonable doubt". It is actually difficult to interpret for ordinary people (well, me for a start). That is not the same as saying "without any doubt whatsoever", but some how it may as well be.

"Beyond reasonable doubt, and without a shadow of a doubt" seem to get interpreted to mean the same.

Research should be done about what a jury actually understands to mean.

Unless there has been CCTV inside a locked room where the alleged rape happened, there would always be a some doubt about whether or not a rape took place.

Exactly. And even if there is DNA, and other evidence, it still doesn’t always result in a conviction.

And if it doesn’t result in a conviction, stupid people think the woman must have been lying after all, otherwise he’d have been found guilty.

And worse than the rape itself (for me anyway) would be going to court, not being believed, having my name dragged through the mud.

Rather just get over it. But then the man always walks free, to do it again, and again.

There’s a case in America where a 14 year old girl was raped by 3 school boys in the toilets.

They have all been suspended, including the girl. Reason was, as she didn’t run away, it must have been consensual.

No words.

gluteus

Id quite like the grown up who came up with that comment to be surrounded by 3 stronger and likely bigger people and see how much they like it

"Beyond reasonable doubt, and without a shadow of a doubt" seem to get interpreted to mean the same

Agree. Apparently many judges sum it up to the jury as 'can you be sure?'. The problem is that the ordinary person might think 'well, I can never be 100% sure because I wasn't there' and then acquit. It is problematic.

Definitely. Attitudes to girls/women surrounding rape are horrendous

Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Apologies I’m rather busy at the moment but the point I wanted to make was that the fundamental point here is that everyone is entitled to a free and fair trial which includes being able to challenge allegations.

There are a number of additional rules when it comes to cross-examination in sex cases ie the accused isn’t allowed to ask questions of the accuser. The type of questions that can be asked under cross-examination go the accuser is also tightly regulated with any deviation having to be court approved first (see Ched Evans case as an example)

Its also worth bearing in mind the number of high profile cases where highly relevant evidence hasn’t been presented to the defence. It’s hard not to wonder especially after reading some of the posts in this thread that the police are under such pressure to get convictions that it’s being done on purpose. Look at the shocking case of Liam Allan where text messages quite clearly showed the accuser (yup, lifelong anonymity) was lying. Then there’s the case of Danny Kay where the accuser deleted incriminating evidence to get a conviction. Thankfully it was recovered but only after the accused had spent 4 years in prison.

Not even going to mention Jemma Beale and the 6 men see accused.

So to some up EVERYONE has the right to a free and fair trial.

Glad you are back tuareg

I, like just about everyone, want fair trials

But you could have argued a point with out bringing in a spurious comment

I think you thought you had a mic drop moment there...and you didnt

Although i am interested in the liam text comment you just made...i don't remember one showing she was lying...at least not one that was reported . Can you link please

maybe as mothers we should all educate our sons more.

How, though? I'm not being glib or attempting to provoke anyone, I'm genuinely interested in how we as Mothers can begin to help?

I have two sons, 12 and 7. I talk to them about personal space, boundaries, respect for one another, consent, unspoken consent, and (to the 12 year old) sexual consent and all the types of behaviours I can think of. I model "no means no" daily, I model a good, honest, balanced and kind marriage and relationship to them daily.

None of these things guarantee that my sons, my wonderful, kind, considerate and honest sons won't grow up to become rapists. The statistics currently available for sexual assaults against women convince me that despite many families raising their sons as well as they possibly can, a percentage of those sons will grow up to perpetrate sexual assaults anyway. As a Mother (and as a woman who has experienced her own 'me too' rape) how on earth is this to be fixed?

gluteustothemaximus
There’s a case in America where a 14 year old girl was raped by 3 school boys in the toilets.
They have all been suspended, including the girl. Reason was, as she didn’t run away, it must have been consensual.
No words.

Having just read about this case I’m left scratching my head at where you you got the above information as it’s so wrong I can only be left questioning your motives for posting it.

Link please, while you are looking at gluteus

Ta muchly

Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Am on a phone now so won’t go into detail but if you go to the police and say you’ve been raped 6 times and sexually assaulted then that’s a statement of fact. If you then text your friend to say “it wasn’t forced or anything” then it’s surely perfectly reasonable to assume your allegations to the police are lies.

It’s also worth bearing in mind that this woman had sent 57,000 texts, a number of which showed she had serious rape fantasies (“Well are you going to take me to the park and rape me? In the bushes”). You see a lot more of the texts online. It’s pretty shocking how this case ever got to court.

Thats what id read from the reports so you dont have a further link

Its all fallen through so i am assuming that if she were actually lying she would be charged

I cant see that that is happening at the moment so it will be interesting to see what happens in the future

Oh and I obviously have no idea either way about what happened

Its just all the trials falling through from bad evidence and therefore the woman is definitely lying is annoying

There are obviously going to be false accusation cases

Having just read about this case I’m left scratching my head at where you you got the above information as it’s so wrong I can only be left questioning your motives for posting it

I don't have any motives. I have been raped however, and this is a pretty fucking sore subject for me.

I don't think its unreasonable to think a woman isn't lying when a rape verdict is not guilty, but I do think it is unreasonable to automatically think that the man got off lightly.

I also don't agree that people call women liars when a rape case is indecisive. Maybe the other party involved may do so because of all the emotions they go through or the press when they want to make stuff sensational but in general I don't think the majority of people would call victims of rape liars.

Rape cases are always very emotive and provoke very strong reactions, but I sometimes think that what people think of when they hear the word rape and what people are arrested for and hauled into court for is sometimes very, very different.

When people think of rape they will often picture women being forced on beds or to the ground, clothes being ripped off and guys being very violent throughout, leaving victims bleeding or half dead. Just like they see on TV or in movies.
In reality most rape allegations that fail to go to court or are filed as insufficient evidence are nothing like that. Most cases are much more difficult because it is just one persons word against the others because there simply isn't any other evidence.
And when there is a non guilty verdict it doesn't automatically mean the guy was innocent or that the woman lied or the excuse that the patriarchy is covering things up. It just means that there wasn't sufficient evidence to convict someone or to clear their name.

I have had first hand dealings with an alleged rape case being brought against a family member. An allegation that turned out to be a fabricated lie so I know that things aren't always a convenient black and white. I also know that some women will lie and play the rape card to get sympathy or get out of a situation, which makes it much more difficult for real victims of rape.