To think a woman isn't automatically lying if a rape trial verdict is not guilty?

[lilly0]

The courts in this country prosecute only on the basis of beyond reasonable doubt. In rape cases the forensic evidence might not be there and it turns into a case of he said she said.
Every other crime we don't seem to automatically call victims liars if the accused is found not guilty. Why is rape so different?

[Babycham1979]

It's quite clear that many of the posters here are unable to imagine themselves being falsely accused of anything quite so serious.

The best thought experiment I can suggest is that you try to imagine being accused of abusing your children. You then lose your job, friends, family for two years. Ultimately, you're cleared in court, but the stench of guilt follows you, particularly as you've been plastered all over the media as an alleged abuser.

Still feel comfortable about the reversal of the assumption of innocence?

[BeachOrPool]

If not guilty doesn't mean innocent, where does the phrase 'innocent until proven guilty' come from?

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

blue

So she hasnt been accused of a false accusation (yet)

The case just fell through?

[SusanBunch]

Still feel comfortable about the reversal of the assumption of innocence?

Has anyone ever suggested that the presumption of innocence should be reversed? I don't think it should. However, in relation to child abuse, your kids could be removed from you even if a criminal court finds you not guilty. A family court judge could make a finding of fact that you abused them and make a care order or prevent you from having any contact with them, despite what the jury said in the crown court. Equally, you could be found not guilty of death by dangerous driving, but a civil court judge could make a finding that you caused the death due to your negligence and award the claimant damages. Both those examples demonstrate that 'not guilty' in the criminal court most certainly is not proof of innocence.

[grannytomine]

If they have done something that they feel might make them seem especially to blame, they might lie about the aspect that makes this so. An example would be that someone's mother told them never to go to a particular street but they had done so, and then been raped: they might lie because they felt that their action had put them at fault. This can make women make false allegations as well. I can remember a case where a father walked in on something, girl was so frightened of father's reaction she cried rape. If father was present she insisted it was rape, if she was alone with police officers she admitted it wasn't but that she was frightened of father. Alot of time was wasted trying to sort that one out.

[worridmum]

That is another problem accused of a sexual crime you invetably will lose your job will have to leave your home if you have children (they must be protected and better to be safe then sorry) Rape cases can take a number of years to go to court and or be dropped so lets be conservative and say the prosecution is quick and only take 1 year to decide to take to court / drop the charges.

In that year the defendant has lost his job been forced out of his home has to find somewhere else to live possibly making his family homeless as cannot afford 2 places and or he has lost his job as no company will keep someone accused of such a serious crime on the books (falls into the category of bringing company reputation into disrepute so they can legally fire you) Must places will not just suspend on full pay btw. Family and friends have to keep away if they have children as SS will be very intrested if they keep contact etc.

This is all before the defendant has even stepped foot inside a court room and all these things happening does not count as punishment? before they have been inside a courtroom (btw no futher action / not guilty verdict does not entile you to any compensation and your "reward" is simply not being further punished by going to court, you cannot get your time back from being froced away for your family you cannot get any money for adverse effects on your life aka extra costs of accommodation you cannot sue your former employer they do not have to give your old job back or give you back pay).

And this is even before your face has been in the press and you are forced out of the area where you are living as there are people that belive no smoke without fire.

What other crimes carry such punishments before being found guilty? (only other sexually based aka child abuse etc crimes which all should be treated as seriously as rape).

Does all this happen if you are accused of theft? shop lifting? drink driving? assault? murder? no there is a massive difference being accused of these crimes the only crime were mud sticks is child abuse , rape and child abuse are seen as the worse possible crimes and even being associated with these crimes carries massive stigma not just to the defendant but the entire family as well.

Again an often over looked victim is the defendants family suffers as well be from not seeing their dad or being targeted by the wider community even in schools little joe blogs your son of a monster etc how does it feel being related to defendant and yes it does happen how is any of this justice.

[SusanBunch]

worridmum how would you suggest that these problems are addressed then? The only thing that anonymity will prevent is the person's name being in the press and most of the time, that doesn't happen anyway. He will still lose his job, have SS involved, potentially lose contact with his children etc. If he works e.g. in education, he will definitely be suspended and colleagues are likely to find out why this is.
You could trial press anonymity but I genuinely don't think it will have the significant impact that some people on here seem to think it will have. Yes, it will stop strangers finding out, but if I read in the paper that Dan Smith from Crescent Gardens has been charged with rape, I likely won't give a toss because I don't know who he is. Dan's actual neighbours would probably have found out anyway because Dan has had to move out of the family home, is bailed to a different address, can no longer see his kids, has had to leave his job and the police have been visiting the address. They may even have been approached by the police themselves as part of the investigation.

[SusanBunch]

Does all this happen if you are accused of theft? shop lifting? drink driving? assault? murder? no

Errrr sorry, you lost me at murder. I am pretty sure that if you are accused of murder that you can't merrily continue with your job, see your children, remain in the family home. For a start, you will be held on remand until trial, so will lose your liberty (not many rapists are remanded before trial). You will definitely lose your job and will not be able to have more than supervised contact with your children.

[worridmum]

if their name is not in the press the wider community will not know so will not hound the family off the accused and companies will not be able to use the term of bringing the company into disrupt as a means to fire someone.

Yes SS will have to be involved as its better to be safe when children are involved but it will at least minimize the effects until found guilty in a court of law.

But the main thing is companies will not have the justification of firing someone so they are not doubly punished even if found not guilty.

And if your fired because of this you can take them to tribunal where as currently you cannot as technically you have brought the company reputation into disrupt because your name is in the press about being a accused rapist where as if your not named they cannot use it as a way to fire someone simply because they are accused of a crime.

This is the main point is that people accused of the most serious crimes are punished before they step foot in court (at least if your remand you can claim compensation if the case is dropped or found not guilty for time spent in jail before hand which is not the case otherwise)

[PleaseDontGoadTheToad]

if their name is not in the press the wider community will not know

They probably will know. People talk. Word spreads.

[PleaseDontGoadTheToad]

I've told this story before but it's worth repeating again here.

I was sexually assaulted at work by a coworker. I reported it and whilst work were sympathetic, he was simply put on opposite shifts to me for the duration of the investigation. He wasn't even suspended or disciplined in any way, let alone sacked.

If an allegation made against someone whilst they were actually at work at the time doesn't result in them losing their jobs then I'm quite frankly super skeptical about the claim that men are losing their jobs in droves after an allegation alone.

[milkysmum]

I served on a jury of 2 separate sexual assault cases. The way the women were subjected to vicious cross examination was absolutely appalling. Many of my fellow jurors also had the most disgusting attitudes to the victims also. Comments such as 'they are just after the compensation' and ' they must have led them on' we're common. One of the most difficult things I have ever done.

[SusanBunch]

And if your fired because of this you can take them to tribunal where as currently you cannot as technically you have brought the company reputation into disrupt because your name is in the press about being a accused rapist where as if your not named they cannot use it as a way to fire someone simply because they are accused of a crime.

Depends. People still talk and a company can be brought into disrepute that way. Liam Allan for instance was charged in 2016- I cannot find any newspaper article about him pre-trial. There will be several rape trials ongoing at your local crown court- how many have you read about in the papers and do you know the names of the men off the top of your head? Maybe if you live in a very close-knit community, you will have a lynchmob outside your home. Otherwise I really doubt it. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I read that some unknown had been charged with rape- I would certainly not try to hunt them down.

Even if men were granted anonymity, this will not prevent gossip. My job would prevent me from working if I were a man charged with rape, regardless of whether the papers named me. Same if you work with children or vulnerable people in any capacity.

[mustbemad17]

Wasn't drink driving, i believe it was classed as death by dangerous driving but when my aunt was killed it was her that was scrutinised more than the prick that ran her off the road. Despite the eye witness accounts of his aggressive driving, the police went into depth about whether my aunt was on the phone, had her glasses on, if my niece was somehow distracting by being asleep in the back

We are 9 years down the line & our family is still suffering. Meanwhile the culprit has finished his two year driving ban, finished his community service & is still raking in millions from his multiple care homes that he runs. It most definitely has not destroyed his life or his racing sponsorships!!!

[beyondworriedmum]

Have a court case to come regarding my DD and feel even more anxious reading other people's experiences please are there positive outcomes out there ? My DDs rapist is going about his business with not a care in the world. For the record I do believe he should be anonymous until proven guilty just so bloody hard.

[Tuareg]

Don’t usually involve myself in such threads but there is some appallingly misandry being posted.

What happens if that accused “man” is your father, brother, husband, son?

[PleaseDontGoadTheToad]

What happens if that accused “man” is your father, brother, husband, son?

People always bring this argument up in threads like this but I don't understand this argument tbh.

The assumption is that if my husband, son, father, etc was accused of rape then there is no way they could have possibly done it therefore the accusation would automatically be a false one. Because of course rapists are all loners with no friends or family and of course they all come with flashing warning lights...

Personally I hope my male relatives and friends never rape anyone.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

Where is the misandry?

And i also dont understand the what if it was your... question

[beyondworriedmum]

Thank you pleasedontgoadthetoad thought it was just me!

[PleaseDontGoadTheToad]

However on the off chance a male relative of mine was accused of rape, falsely or otherwise, I would expect the police to do their jobs properly and investigate thoroughly in order to get to the bottom of what happened.

What I wouldn't do however is stamp my feet and whine about how unfair it was they were being investigated because they're my relative.

The police do not have crystal balls. It isn't always obvious at first who is innocent and who is guilty so they have to investigate and do some digging in order to find out. That's how criminal investigations work.

I think it's very telling that people are always more worried about their relative being falsely accused than they about the fact they're relative may rape someone.

[mustbemad17]

If my brother/father/cousin etc was accused of rape i'd be devastated. I wouldn't however try & dictate what happened & how. I would lamp the shit out of them if I ever found out it was true But relative or not, I still believe that anonymity for both sides until a legal outcome had been reached is a good system to have

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

I know someone who was falsely accused of sexual assault

Police investigated

Cctv proved she was lying

the end

I still believe that false accusations are uncommon and i also believe that just because a rape case falls through that it doesnt always follow that the woman was lying...i would say thats rare