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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think a woman isn't automatically lying if a rape trial verdict is not guilty?

350 replies

lilly0 · 11/02/2018 02:30

The courts in this country prosecute only on the basis of beyond reasonable doubt. In rape cases the forensic evidence might not be there and it turns into a case of he said she said.
Every other crime we don't seem to automatically call victims liars if the accused is found not guilty. Why is rape so different?

OP posts:
TheBrilliantMistake · 11/02/2018 23:27

Also, there was a female conviction for rape as part of a gang. It seemed slightly at odds with the legal definition of rape, but still, she was convicted of it.

mirime · 11/02/2018 23:30

@PatriarchyPersonified I thought 85,000 was the estimated number of rapes, not the number reported to the police. The number reported to the police is lower therefore the number of false allegations must be lower than 4250.

bluepears · 11/02/2018 23:30

'Also, there was a female conviction for rape as part of a gang. It seemed slightly at odds with the legal definition of rape, but still, she was convicted of it.'

i dont know the case but was she charged as an accomplice?

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/02/2018 23:30

Sexual assault by penetration is a different charge to rape.

Legally only men can be charged with rape because rape requires a penis.

I suppose it's possible the OP could be falsely accused of sexual assault but even in that case it still wouldn't change the fact that a not guilty verdict does not mean the complainant lied.

TheBrilliantMistake · 11/02/2018 23:31

*edit, I believe she received the same sentence as the men, but technically it wasn't rape. She assisted in the carrying out of a rape. Just typing that made me want to be sick. Wickedness is no respecter of gender / sex.

lilly0 · 11/02/2018 23:32

Well I can't rape anyone because I don't have a penis, and I wouldn't ever put myself in a situation to be accused of sexual assault.

OP posts:
PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/02/2018 23:33

Also, there was a female conviction for rape as part of a gang.

If that's the same case I'm thinking of it wasn't rape she was convicted for.

TheBrilliantMistake · 11/02/2018 23:33

Women can be (and have been) convicted of statutory rape, but this is a different type of rape (sex with a minor)

TheBrilliantMistake · 11/02/2018 23:34

If that's the same case I'm thinking of it wasn't rape she was convicted for (see above!)

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/02/2018 23:34

Wickedness is no respecter of gender / sex

I'm sure it's just a massive coincidence that the the vast majority of people serving time for violent crimes and sex crimes are male...

bluepears · 11/02/2018 23:40

Well I can't rape anyone because I don't have a penis, and I wouldn't ever put myself in a situation to be accused of sexual assault.

err these cases the men didnt put them in a situation of being accused of rape any more than being in a relationship with them. but then you must believe no women could ever lie about being raped www.thesun.co.uk/news/5461422/texts-man-three-months-jail-woman-accused-rape-texts/ a she says 'im going to ruin his life.'

and you should understand what an accomplice is in uk law you dont do the act you facilitate it and get charged with the same crime so yes you could be charged with rape.

TheBrilliantMistake · 11/02/2018 23:42

I'm sure it's just a massive coincidence that the the vast majority of people serving time for violent crimes and sex crimes are male...

Not sure that sarcasm is called for. We all know the vast majority of such crimes are carried out by men, but my point stands, there are enough cases where females have carried out sexual offences to be mindful of it and it's all the more shocking that a woman could be involved in enabling a rape. All those more shocking because it's less commonplace.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/02/2018 23:45

then you must believe no women could ever lie about being raped

Hmm
TheBrilliantMistake · 11/02/2018 23:45

I do not believe any man or woman can avoid being in a situation where they could be accused.
A lady above was assaulted in a kitchen at work. How on earth could she have avoided that? and by the same token, how on earth could a man avoid being accused of the same in a kitchen without a camera?

There but for the grace of God go we...

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 11/02/2018 23:50

I do think that saying you wouldn't put yourself in a position where you could be falsely accused. It's like saying you wouldn't put yourself in a position where you could be raped.

I was sexually assaulted at work by a coworker.

I was raped in a relative's house by a family friend.

I fail to see how I could have protected myself in either of these situations tbh.

lilly0 · 11/02/2018 23:54

I don't work with children I'm straight and in a monogamous relationship , so I'm really trying to envisage a situation where I could be accused of rape/sexual assault and I can't think of any.
I do think that some women lie but it's rare much rarer than what the press make out. If there is no DNA evidence , witnesses or CCTV it's pretty much one word against the other that doesn't mean the crime didn't happen because there wasn't enough proof to convict . I was punched in the face by group of women at a club there wasn't enough evidence no CCTV and they said they didn't do it I had a black eye . They most definitely did that doesn't mean I was lying because the CPS wouldn't prosecute.

OP posts:
lilly0 · 11/02/2018 23:59

No I'm very sorry that happened to you I don't think you could have prevented that situation I'm talking about being accused of sexual offences which no matter how hard I try I cannot think of a situation where I would be accused of rape/sexual assault , I have been the victim of sexual violence too.

OP posts:
WildWindsBlowing · 12/02/2018 00:00

It is a rape myth that a person who has really been raped would not lie.

People who have been raped often blame themselves. If they have done something that they feel might make them seem especially to blame, they might lie about the aspect that makes this so. An example would be that someone's mother told them never to go to a particular street but they had done so, and then been raped: they might lie because they felt that their action had put them at fault.

The prosecution might also try to show that the alleged victim has told a lie at some other point in their life, to try to make it seem that they cannot be relied on to tell the truth. In reality most people have lied at some point.

TheBrilliantMistake · 12/02/2018 00:01

This is such a difficult topic, but lets be honest about things:

  1. The huge majority of sexual offences, particularly violent ones are carried out by men.
  2. Some sexual offences are carried out by women.
  3. Sometimes, guilty men get off because there wasn't enough evidence.
  4. Sometimes, when lie about sexual offences having taken place.

We can't just ignore inconvenient truths, but they do have a nasty habit of ruining everything for the masses. If we absolutely knew that no woman would ever lie about it, then we'd only have to worry about her interpretation of events, not about lying. Things would be a lot easier. Therefore the minority of women who would make something up create huge hurdles for the majority who do not lie.
But, above all, the men who carry out these offences cause even more damage. They ruin the lives of some of their victims, and at least scar others, and also help to create an environment where women are nervous about being alone with men, and where men are nervous about being alone with women.

TheBrilliantMistake · 12/02/2018 00:07

I cannot think of a situation where I would be accused of rape/sexual assault

I cannot think of many where I could NOT be accused if someone wanted to do so. Fortunately for most of us, we are surrounded by sensible people and never face this situation, but there is absolutely nothing stopping someone deciding to accuse you.

If a woman gets in a lift with a man, there's a chance he could touch her up. At the same time, there's a chance she could accuse the man of touching her up.
There's simply not many situation where you could ever avoid that chance. It just doesn't happen very often because 99.99% of us don't make up those accusations and don't assault each other. It's pure chance it doesn't happen to us though.

jacks11 · 12/02/2018 01:41

As part of my work, I frequently come into contact with women who have been raped (or allege they have been raped, as some would prefer to look at it). My impression is that to present in the way these women do, very few are lying. Or they are incredible actresses- oscar winning standard. The turmoil would be very hard to fake.

I also know that the trials so often just make the victim feel violated all over again, often being as bad (or worse) as the initial assault. And so many men get off with it.

Knowing what I know about the whole process, I am certain I would not report it if I were raped. Unless it was by a random stranger and I was not dressed in anything that could be remotely construed as" suggestive" and had not been drinking alcohol. Even then, I would be hesitant. I don't think I would want to be torn to shreds the way victims so often are. I think trying to find a way to come to terms with it would be all I could so. The feeling of being called a liar and so on, compounds things and haunts many victims. It's hardly surprising reporting rates are so low, never mind the conviction rate.

I am not saying some women (and men) don't lie about rape. They do, but the numbers are small and in most cases quickly weeded out. The recent publicised ones show a specific issue within the police and CPS and is a relatively small number. No comfort to those falsely accused, obviously, and I do have every sympathy as their cases should never have been taken to court.

I also think, though, that it is very interesting the amount of media coverage and discussion these few cases of men being falsely accused has generated? Especially when compared to the issues surrounding the very low conviction rates, the estimated number of rapes that go unreported and the number that never make it to court due to "lack of evidence". Men getting falsely accused is awful. Men getting away with rape is also awful. Why does the former generate more publicity than the latter?

gluteustothemaximus · 12/02/2018 01:51

I find the imbalance incredible. So many rapes. So many go unpunished. Yet as soon as a woman lies about rape - big news. If they mention that student one more fucking time, I will go insane.

Yes it must be truly awful to be accused of rape if innocent. But 85000 rapes a year...and we focus on the one that didn’t happen.

And as for the ched Evans case. So many people said ‘he was found innocent’. There’s no such thing!!!!

‘Not guilty’ is not ‘innocent’.

Angry
mirime · 12/02/2018 02:40

I must admit I'm edging towards anonymity for the accused, if only because in the case I know of they got to say the most awful things about the victim, some of which I know were distortions of the truth or outright lies but she had no way of replying without giving up her anonymity. The while thing was awful, yet to the world she's a false accuser and anyone in her area who is able to work out who she is could well believe the lies.

Also they say the women who lot out of other women from coming forward, I'm not sure that's true. I'd not report now because I know what would be said about me if there wasn't a conviction, I know I could tell the truth yet be torn completely to shreds without ever actually making it into a court room.

Pengggwn · 12/02/2018 08:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HateTheDF · 12/02/2018 08:53

I've not read this thread but I do have my own story regarding this.

Someone very close to me was raped and I had no doubt that she was telling the truth. She reported it, it went to court, I don't know if it did have anything to do with it but his father was a judge and he got away with it. A few days later he was in the same place as the person close to me and he was boasting at how he had got away with it and he will see her later.

It does happen.