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Original poster

The Bulger killers: was justice done?

999 replies

WannaBeWonderWoman · 08/02/2018 00:07

Following on from previous thread which was filled.

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened? Whether they attended an adult court and were convicted of murder which they confessed to anyway, was this crueller to them than what they put that child through? They were well treated and even when they were serving their 'sentence' they were protected and given all they wanted (more than they would have got if they'd been in their own homes probably) and had all the help and therapy it was possible to give them. Did they suffer? You could actually argue that they benefitted from killing. They have to live with what they've done, yes, but if they did I find it hard to comprehend that Thompson especially (who came across as the leader in the interviews) can.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

He was the only victim here.

OP posts:
Elendon · 09/02/2018 15:54

Anyway I'm going to respond to the OP. @WannaBeWonderWoman

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

'Little boys' doing unimaginable suffering to a child who is a week away from their 3rd birthday is an abhorrent act. What needed to be done was to find the causes for such an act to take place and to judge the boys, for sentencing, in a youth court, not an adult court. Secondly, the press ought to rein it in, the Sun made millions out of James Bulger's murder. Thirdly, the government should not have intervened. Fourthly, the Judge should not have released the names.

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened?

I don't think you are interested in the slightest to this information. Cotton wool ears is the phrase that comes to mind.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

The child murdered was 4 and a half years old, her killers almost 7 and ready for Kindergarten, which they attended weeks after. They were approximately 3 years younger than Thompson and Venables. I think this is similar. You don't of course because you have an agenda and you are going to stick with it.

He was the only victim here

If you are referring to James Bulger, then you are most mistaken. His parents and other close relatives were victims too.

Itsnotmesothere · 09/02/2018 15:57

Babyccino The norwegian case, though chilling, was quite different to that of the bulger case. Those 2 boys were just 6 and although her death was terrible, she was not subjected to the same pre-meditated drawn-out ordeal that James was

Aeroflotgirl · 09/02/2018 16:01

Very sad for their second son who Ralph does not see, mabey it was just too painful for Ralph. It's a shame that he was not present in his sons life. I feel sorry for the sin, when he talks about his daughter healing him.

cista · 09/02/2018 16:06

Whilst I do believe in rehabilitation, I find it sad that some members of the public will have to work and interact with Venables and Thomson. I read that Venables worked in a pizza chain before his first adult arrest, how awful that must have been for his colleagues when they found out! I use to work for the same pizza chain (different location) and if that had been me, I don't think I could have gone back to work! Sad

Woollysheepsheep · 09/02/2018 16:09

Cista to be realistic you could be working with anyone at anytime. So that's a bit ridiculous.

We wouldn't necessarily know if our colleagues are ex criminals or just criminals who haven't been caught.

SusanBunch · 09/02/2018 16:18

The norwegian case, though chilling, was quite different to that of the bulger case. Those 2 boys were just 6 and although her death was terrible, she was not subjected to the same pre-meditated drawn-out ordeal that James was

I don't buy this. It takes a lot of force and brutality for two boys to kill a young girl. That will have been drawn out too, albeit minus the long walk that James was subjected too. They beat her, attacked her with stones and stripped off her clothes. It was very brutal and the children were not 'half the age' of Venables and Thompson- they were just a few years younger. If you condemn the Bulger killing, you must also condemn the Norway killing- you don't get to say that one of them involved confused children and the other involved fully formed monsters.

JemimaHolm · 09/02/2018 16:20

We wouldn't necessarily know if our colleagues are ex criminals or just criminals who haven't been caught.

Precisely. I am a teacher and worked with a man who was found to have images of child abuse on his computer. I had been working with him for years and nobody suspected a thing until he was caught.

Woollysheepsheep · 09/02/2018 16:26

The Norwegian case was similar but not identical. The big differences being the Bulger killers actually took James and walked him a very long way, the also put him on the railway to make it look like an accident. A lot more thought went into it.

I feel like the younger the victim the older the murderer it does become more difficult to be understanding.

I've no idea where the cut off point lies really. We know that countries have different ages of criminal responsibility, so it's not clear cut is it.

Woollysheepsheep · 09/02/2018 16:28

If the boys had been playing with James in a park and turned on him, I don't believe it would have created quite such a storm.

ChelleDawg2020 · 09/02/2018 16:34

Personally, I would have seen them locked up until they were 18 and then be hanged (because society probably isn't ready to see children go to the gallows).

I don't think all murderers should necessarily be executed, but murderers who torture their victims should be.

Thymeout · 09/02/2018 16:36

Elendon

Yes, I agree. I found the interviews with Kelvin McKenzie as shocking as the behaviour of the crowd who were out to get the two boys as they were taken to trial. He incited and exploited the lynch mob mentality of a section of society. Was there no one in that Norwegian village who felt differently about their children going to the same kindergarten as the boys who killed a little girl? I can't imagine it happening here. Is it really such a different society?

Itsnotmesothere · 09/02/2018 16:40

I didn't say that they were half the age of V and T. I do not condone what they did. But here in the UK, they would have been below the age of criminal responsibility unlike V and T. I'm not sure the UK would have reacted the same to that as they did to James. I don't know which system is right. I feel very much for the little girl who undoubtedly suffered but there are key differences which mean V and T should have been punished. They tried to take another child that morning, murder was very much on their minds. After subjecting him to a confusing, scary and tiring lengthy walk, they tortured and killed him and tried to conceal their act!

Springiscoming123 · 09/02/2018 16:45

i find it strange how the Norway community reacted and dealt with it,i wouldnt want my child near them regardless of age and circumstance

Butterymuffin · 09/02/2018 16:46

I read that Venables worked in a pizza chain before his first adult arrest, how awful that must have been for his colleagues when they found out

Cista but this is where they can't win. If they do nothing for the rest of their lives, they're a drain on the taxpayer at vast expense. But if they work and contribute, as they should IMO, then it's 'how could anyone work with them?' Surely some kind of service / retail job where all your interactions are going to be public is the best way to usefully occupy them?

Butterymuffin · 09/02/2018 16:48

Thyme I don't see why Kelvin McKenzie was allowed to speak at all. Why is the word of a known liar in any way relevant or informative?

GnotherGnu · 09/02/2018 16:50

ChelleDawg, if anything that is more barbaric than hanging them as children. Could you seriously contemplate telling a 10 year old child that on their 18th birthday they're going to be cold-bloodedly hanged, knowing that they would have that hanging over them for the rest of their childhood?

Sleepingbunnies · 09/02/2018 16:50

Gnu after what they did who gives a shit about their childhood??!!!

SusanBunch · 09/02/2018 16:51

Itsnotme the OP is the one who said they were nearly half the age of V and T.

Had V and T been born 6 months later, they would not have had criminal responsibility in England either- they were JUST on the brink.

I think they undoubtedly had in mind to take a child, but I am not so sure murder/torture was definitely on their mind. The long meandering walk taking two hours suggests that they did not have a clear plan at all. And bearing in mind that you are talking about a young child, that is no surprise at all.

Reading about the Norway case, it sounds as if one of the boys has also had troubles growing up and cannot let go of the guilt of what he did.
www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2010/mar/20/norway-town-forgave-child-killers

Elendon · 09/02/2018 16:51

I know I was shocked when I heard that's what they did Thymeout I suppose it's a different way of looking at the catastrophic impacts on the community.

The parents were consulted beforehand though as others have posted previously, it was a case of how did we as a society allow this to happen. I've been to Norway, it has it's own version of The Sun, but mainly, it's a pleasant and safe place but not without problems.

Lizzie48 · 09/02/2018 16:52

I was surprised that Kelvin McKenzie was interviewed in view of the fact that he is hated by Liverpudlians for the Sun's portrayal of the Liverpool fans following the Hillsborough tragedy. They won't even sell the Sun newspaper from what I've heard. So that was strange. Hmm

Original poster
WannaBeWonderWoman · 09/02/2018 16:52

SusanBunch if you knew anything about the Norwegian case, you would know that Silje died of exposure as she was knocked unconscious when she fell.

There were also 3 boys involved not 2. She was not naked, her coat was pulled off.

Details of this case have been left out and altered to suit the liberals who use it as a comparison to James' case so they can justify their view that T&V should have got away with murder, the poor lambs.

Silje's mother and siblings have stated that they live in fear of one of the boys involved who has threatened them as an adult.

OP posts:
Itsnotmesothere · 09/02/2018 17:00

Susanbunch They said they were looking for a child to throw into oncoming traffic. They definitely had murderous intentions. The pathologist could not determine which of the numerous and extensive injuries was the cause of death.
I do not know about the norwegian boys backgrounds but Silje died of exposure and not of her injuries

SusanBunch · 09/02/2018 17:07

I don't understand what you're saying. On one hand you say it's not that bad because she actually froze to death and did not die from her injuries Hmm. On the other you're saying that it is bad because the family has been threatened.

Both cases involve seriously disturbed children and in both cases and at least one of them in each case has grown up into a seriously disturbed adult. So neither system (automatic forgiveness v lifelong condemnation) seems to have worked magic. There probably is no perfect answer.

captainjacksparrow · 09/02/2018 17:13

I don't think its necessarily as simple as saying JV can't be rehabilitated. Clearly the unit he was housed in was questionable given his "relationship" with a staff member which may be part of the reason he has gone on to reoffend - he wasn't rehabilitated.
This is why he should have been held longer and received counselling/treatment for a further length of time. Had this occurred or he had been in a different unit he may not have offended again.
This is what needs to be learnt from this imho

ChaosNeverRains · 09/02/2018 17:23

I do find it somewhat incredulous that people talk with sadness about how Ralph doesn’t see his second son and even give credence to that decision on the basis that perhaps the loss of James was just too hard for him? also that Michael could have been the link and brought him closer to james...

There is no doubt that evidence suggests that marriages are less likely to survive the loss of a child, However given the number of men who do become estranged from their children it is hardly appropriate to excuse this fact now on the basis that the loss was just too great for him. Also to put the burden (if you can call it that) of responsibility on to Michael to have been the link between his father and brother who had died in very public circumstances before he was even born.

Interestingly Michael has never spoken publicly about his own experience of growing up in the shadow of events and his own take on things, given that he too will have been subject to the press intrusion into their lives over the years...