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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

The Bulger killers: was justice done?

999 replies

WannaBeWonderWoman · 08/02/2018 00:07

Following on from previous thread which was filled.

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened? Whether they attended an adult court and were convicted of murder which they confessed to anyway, was this crueller to them than what they put that child through? They were well treated and even when they were serving their 'sentence' they were protected and given all they wanted (more than they would have got if they'd been in their own homes probably) and had all the help and therapy it was possible to give them. Did they suffer? You could actually argue that they benefitted from killing. They have to live with what they've done, yes, but if they did I find it hard to comprehend that Thompson especially (who came across as the leader in the interviews) can.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

He was the only victim here.

OP posts:

ZanyMobster · 09/02/2018 14:33

Ladyincement - I totally agree with everything you've said. It seems that this particular case was dealt with very differently than many others. I have no idea why they were released so soon, I genuinely don't believe it was because they were deemed to be 100% safe, they were allegedly primed well before the hearing and were taught to lie properly in order to be able to remain anonymous so how the parole board made a fully informed decision I'll never know. It is well reported that they had lots of special treatment inside their units, they weren't forced to follow the rules like everyone else so it just doesn't feel like a proper punishment, your point re punishment and deterrent hopefully hits a nerve with those who believe that the 8 years in the youth facility was sufficient and just.

The minimum tariff was set to specifically release them before going into an adult facility, this I kind of understand for many crimes but due to the seriousness of this one I just can't make sense of it.

I do believe it's irrelevant that Thompson appears to have not committed any further crimes, all that suggests is that they may have made the correct decision with him but why was Venables not treated as an individual, if the reports are correct it was clear he was not rehabilitated and was not safe to be released which he proved right the way through.

I can totally understand that they were only 10 and that throwing away the key would not be appropriate at that point however now with Venables at 35, it is, IMO, the only possible action.

LagunaBubbles · 09/02/2018 14:34

The idea that most child killers can be rehabilitated and go on to lead normal lives really bothers a lot of people. I think this is because it shows that really, they are fundementally much like everybody else, which isn't a message most people want to hear. Much more comforting to believe they are some sort of evil "other"

Its not about some sort of "evil" other though, and I certainly dont get any comfort from it but its about accepting some people are just "bad". And are capable of extremely bad things. That includes children as well as adults. Personality disorders are real. And some personality disorders can contribute to whether a person is capable of killing another. As can genetics. As can upbringing.

JediJim · 09/02/2018 14:48

Darth made a very good point. Speculation about why these boys did something so terrible is something we may never know. If experts 25 years later can’t answer that then how can we?
I believe two damaged kids made a bad combination together. One had the idea to get a kid, the opportunity came and we all know what happened. Just so awful. I’d say James was in wrong place at wrong time, but that’s not right. It was those boys that shouldn’t have been there it there you are.
James dad Ralph was in court the other day so yes he’s very much around. Actually Ralph and Denise had a son shortly after James’ murder, although they divorced soon afterwards. From what I’ve read, Ralph is estranged from his son who would have been James full brother, it’s sad that they don’t seem to have had a relationship. Considering that his brother would be a connection to James. But that’s there business, but just seems so terribly sad .

Strongvegetables · 09/02/2018 14:52

jedjim I agree

Lizzie48 · 09/02/2018 14:54

James's dad wrote his own book so he did get involved with the media. But he's had serious problems with alcohol, hardly surprisingly, and he has no contact with James's younger brother, Michael, which is really sad.

Itsnotmesothere · 09/02/2018 15:09

I feel for Michael, the child that Ralph doesn't see. Perhaps another boy was too painful a reminder for Ralph. He spoke to the press about how his young daughter has healed him and I wonder how Michael feels about that.
Even though Ralph and Denise seem as happy as they can with their new partners and children, it's just terrible to see how their lives were ripped apart and the course changed forever because of two boys' horrendous decisions

Lizzie48 · 09/02/2018 15:12

Denise says in her book that Michael looks upon his stepdad as his real dad and has taken his surname now. Very sad that Ralph has cut himself off from him, though.

FluffyWuffy100 · 09/02/2018 15:17

@Strongvegetables so you would kill a child if they killed your child. Then the other mother should kill you? Because you took away her child. Then what? Your husband kills the other mother? Then her husband kills your husband? Then we all go to war?

I can’t belive an adult with an adequate level of critical thinking and reasoning would say they would kill a child in cold blood revenge.

Sleepingbunnies · 09/02/2018 15:22

I said that not strong. Yes I think I would be capable of doing that if they had done to my child what they did to James.

Strongvegetables · 09/02/2018 15:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FluffyWuffy100 · 09/02/2018 15:32

@Strongvegetables but then do you accept that it would also be right for their mothers to murder you?

berryferry · 09/02/2018 15:36

Well you wouldn't be put in a room with them would you? So I doubt you would kill them. Even if you knew where they were.

Elendon · 09/02/2018 15:37

Some sick thoughts on this thread. It's abhorrent to read.

Sleeping you obviously have issues.

berryferry · 09/02/2018 15:39

What a ridiculous thing to say. I and millions of other viewers, watched the Sir Trevor McDonald programme.

I'm not sure why how many people watched it makes any difference, and I just find the idea gratuitous tbh.

JemimaHolm · 09/02/2018 15:41

Their guilt was clearly not in question.

Their guilt was in question when they walked in to that court room. The jury were there to determine whether they were guilty of murder, otherwise a trial would not have taken place, just sentencing. The ECHR, incidentally, found that the boys did not receive a fair trial but the verdict was not overturned beacuse it didn't affect the outcome. Which is pretty much how I feel - trial wasn't fair but I think the verdict was.

babyccinoo · 09/02/2018 15:41

I said that not strong. Yes I think I would be capable of doing that if they had done to my child what they did to James.

sleeping so, as Fluffy asked, do you accept that the mother of the 10 yo child may want to kill you for killing her child?

Woollysheepsheep · 09/02/2018 15:43

Berryferry why shouldn't people watch the programme? Who are you to judge people for watch they watch on television?

babyccinoo · 09/02/2018 15:46

What was interesting about the Norwegian case was that the boys went back to school 2 weeks after the killing, in the same community.

I think that if it had happened in the U.K., people would been baying for the blood of 6 yos as well.

Lizzie48 · 09/02/2018 15:47

@berryferry You're judging people for having watched the programme now? Well, here you are on a forum discussing it, so how are you any different really??

berryferry · 09/02/2018 15:48

I'm not judging, I'm just not sure what people gained from watching it, what new info did it add?

Woollysheepsheep · 09/02/2018 15:49

By the way I watched it and I'm not ashamed to admit I'm quite fascinated by the case because it is so unusual. Like many people must be which is why there are now two threads that have reached nearly 1000 posts.

Strongvegetables · 09/02/2018 15:49

but then do you accept that it would also be right for their mothers to murder you?

They could have a try if they wanted. Maybe they would be just like you though - a much better person than me and would expect me to go through the prison service getting rehabilitated...

berryferry · 09/02/2018 15:51

I already answered that earlier @Lizzie48
I think a discussion on what justice should look like in this case is an interesting one. But rehashing the day, the witnesses, the details, I just don't see what people are getting out of that.

Woollysheepsheep · 09/02/2018 15:51

Well I imagine some people who watched it won't have remembered the case first time round.

But what does anyone gain from watching anything really?

berryferry · 09/02/2018 15:52

Well I imagine some people who watched it won't have remembered the case first time round.

Yes that's true.

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