The Bulger killers: was justice done?

[WannaBeWonderWoman]

Following on from previous thread which was filled.

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened? Whether they attended an adult court and were convicted of murder which they confessed to anyway, was this crueller to them than what they put that child through? They were well treated and even when they were serving their 'sentence' they were protected and given all they wanted (more than they would have got if they'd been in their own homes probably) and had all the help and therapy it was possible to give them. Did they suffer? You could actually argue that they benefitted from killing. They have to live with what they've done, yes, but if they did I find it hard to comprehend that Thompson especially (who came across as the leader in the interviews) can.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

He was the only victim here.

It isn't unusual for children that age to act out

Act out? I wouldn't call what he did acting out.

Susan Because some people, thankfully few on here, seem to equate vengeance as justice and have actually time travelled from the Old Testament where an eye for an eye was the usual punishment.

I don’t know enough about the case but from a brief google of what I have just read forgiveness wouldn’t be something I could do as that poor girls mother.

Are you genuinely saying that you believe they should have a life?? I am stunned. I don’t know, maybe it makes you a better person than me, I would without a doubt murder someone who did that to a child of mine.

shanters what do YOU think is appropriate for them?

Sleeping I agree with you 100%

How do you think our prisons fail to do this?

How do you balance it with the fact that prison can't be a pleasant place to be??

Rebecca, I don't even know where to start. Prisoners are totally dehumanised in UK prisons. There is so much literature on it that you could read for years and still not be finished. We also have a very high rate of re-offending. No, prison is not a pleasant place to be, but here you are written off and condemned as soon as you enter the prison system. In other countries (e.g. Scandinavian ones), there is a much lower reoffending rate and the way they treat their inmates is markedly different. There is a difference between condemning the act and condemning the person. Here, I believe we condemn the person and it doesn't seem to be working.

They should never ever been allowed out. Even at ten what they did was beyond abhorrent, twisted and evil - yes evil. Go and read what they did to him if you don’t think it was. Some thing was/is broken in those two boys/men . And the public should have forever been protected by them.

How are women being protected by them ? Who would be watching to see if these men don’t get in to a relationship with an unsuspecting woman? Are they supppsed to stay celibate? Are they allowed to go on and create a family with a woman who would be repulsed to know the truth?

How could you actually look at yourself knowing what you had inflicted on that poor baby. How is his cries not ringing in their heads and not making them insane?

Yes, we're well aware Sleeping that you've announced several times that you would be prepared to murder another child with your bare hands.

I actually think far more people are stunned that you, as a mother, let alone a human being, think state sanctioned killing of CHILDREN should be brought back.

I can understand revulsion of what they did. I can understand grief like nothing else. I can understand the feeling of wanting revenge, I honestly can. But I cannot understand any sane adult genuinely advocating the killing of children.

Agree strongvegtables

Are you genuinely saying that you believe they should have a life?? I am stunned. I don’t know, maybe it makes you a better person than me, I would without a doubt murder someone who did that to a child of mine.

Even if that someone was six years old (as in the Norway case)? What I am taking away from this is that you believe that murder, maybe even torture, is okay as long as the murderer feels they have a good reason for it, ie revenge.

Again shanters what do you think is appropriate? You think they we’re punished/rehabilitated enough? Really?

As you can see from the Username, this case is very close to my heart. I'm sure some of the other Scousers on this site may feel the same way as I do.

The thing that sits so heavy with me is how could someone from Liverpool do something like this? In general we have a lot of problems with petty crime but as a woman and a mother IMO I have no worries walking down the street at night on my own or letting my DC play in the street. I will admit that there is a problem with gangs and this is what led to Rhys Jones being killed.

One thing that I always say to my DH is that if Lee Rigby had been attacked in Liverpool he wouldn't be dead now. That's because those 2 men would have been jumped and probably killed by a mob. The point I am making is that they don't walk by. They look out for each other. I now live in London and this is the kind of thing I would expect down here, but not up there.

I know The Strand Shopping Centre really well. Its the kind of place where you can let go of your DC's hand whilst you chat to the butcher because no one is going to take your DC, or so we thought. I bet you that when we saw the CCTV we all thought, oh its OK some kids have found him and are looking for a policeman to take them to him.

The very fact that Venebles has been back to Liverpool drinking in the pubs shows that he is either deluded or has no remorse whatsoever. He's also really stupid because he would be killed within minutes of his identity being known. That's how much we despise them.

Justice wasn't done. I have no problem with them being tried as children, its the length of the punishment I have an issue with. They should have got 25 years each because they are a danger to the public and to themselves. One of the Detectives on the TV last night said "there are 10-year olds and there are 10-year olds". This sums it up. They are evil. How can a 10-year old kick a 2-year old repeatedly in the face with his foot, throw over 30 bricks at him, sexually abuse him (they didn't talk about that on last nights program) and leave him die if you are anything but.

susan what you are describing is not every ones experience of prison. Dh was sent to a young offenders prison when he was sixteen for robbing a garden shed. He had a computer in his room and plenty of money sent in by his mum. He found it easy.

Susan - so how would you look a victim or the parent/child of a victim in the eye and argue for prisons to be nicer places? What would you say?

Strong The middle section of your posting has actually been addressed upthread to some extent.

Sleeping Part of me says lock them up and throw away the key except for the fact that it has been proven that some children can be successfully rehabilitated and that children's brains are not the same as adults, especially if they themselves have been subjected to appalling treatment themselves. I do think Venables isn't and can't be rehabilitated and as he has broken his licence more than once, he probably should not be released again.

Susan - so how would you look a victim or the parent/child of a victim in the eye and argue for prisons to be nicer places? What would you say?

She doesn't have to. She hasn't said they should be "nicer" whatever you mean by that, but more useful.

So how would that have worked Grumble? Would James' parents be legally prevented from telling anybody who killed him, under threat of prosecution? Really?

sleeping do you believe in corporal punishment? How do you punish your own children when they do wrong?

No Iv never raised a hand to any of my children in my life. Having been on the receiving end of that as a child it’s not something we do in my house.

Susan-so how would you look a victim or the parent/child of a victim in the eye and argue for prisons to be nicer places? What would you say?

I would say that no amount of a person being locked up will undo the harm of the crime committed but that it is better to ensure that this sort of thing does not happen to someone else.

I think you are confusing what I am saying as well. I am not saying give them plasma screens and let them roam free. What I am saying is try to build them up as a person, maybe through getting involved with various projects, learning a trade or skill etc. Something that makes them feel worthwhile. Think about how they can start to repair what they have done rather than start from the assumption that nothing can be repaired. That doesn't mean that prison will be a 'nice time' for them. In fact, it might be more challenging to have to work on making yourself a better person, rather than being told that you're a write-off and spending your time in prison playing pool, fighting and dealing drugs.

EHCT - I don't know enough about the prison system to comment much, hence the questions.

But it seems to me that if Susan wants to overhaul our prisons and thinks this will reduce reoffending, that means making them nicer places to spend time. Fine to think that, esp if you do have some knowledge of how British prisons work - but how do you balance that against the need for it to be something of a deterrent/punishment, and for the grieving family or the victim to feel that some sort of justice has taken place?

Ok Susan - so maybe in that case it's not just prison that you are advocating changing, as the public attitude to what it does/should do?

So if you want to justify the cost of training Robert Thompson to train as an electrician, or to get a degree, you have to be able to explain to the public why this is better than the current system and why he deserves that chance when he took it away from James bulger.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to thrash it out a bit more!

I can't read this anymore. Unbelievably vile that several posters think we should kill children. Feels like I've stumbled into some kind of dark web forum.
It would also be more respectful imo not to keep detailing the injuries.

Well, it was in a way, T's home life was very violent and that will have played a part in making him capable of horrendous violence. It obviously isn't an excuse, it's something to be taken into account. Separated from the violent home life, he's proved himself capable of being rehabilitated.

Venables isn't capable of rehabilitation, he's grown up into an adult paedophile. His home life was not dysfunctional, by all accounts.

The biggest mistake has been dealing with them in exactly the same way, they should have been judged as individuals.

I would without a doubt murder someone who did that to a child of mine.

This shite again. No you bloody wouldn’t. In common with pretty much all the parents of murdered children