The Bulger killers: was justice done?

[WannaBeWonderWoman]

Following on from previous thread which was filled.

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened? Whether they attended an adult court and were convicted of murder which they confessed to anyway, was this crueller to them than what they put that child through? They were well treated and even when they were serving their 'sentence' they were protected and given all they wanted (more than they would have got if they'd been in their own homes probably) and had all the help and therapy it was possible to give them. Did they suffer? You could actually argue that they benefitted from killing. They have to live with what they've done, yes, but if they did I find it hard to comprehend that Thompson especially (who came across as the leader in the interviews) can.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

He was the only victim here.

shatner can you indicate the time as I can’t see it scrolling up.

I do wonder if any diagnosis on being psychopaths were given to either of these boys.

Temporaryscouser - that's exactly what Denise said in her book several times, that the feeling of relief when she saw the boys had him as she thought he must be safe. The whole thing is still devastating 25 years on.

After last night's programme there have been lots of Facebook comments. Some saying they should get over it by now etc, how is that going to happen, surely you never recover from something like this, fighting for some sort of justice probably helps them keep going and in all honesty is the right thing to do.

Death penalty/never seeing the light of day is just ridiculous but proper rehabilitation/punishment and a huge prison sentence (as with adult murderers) if rehabilitation does not work or when parole rules are broken (which they were right through with V). The whole case has been terribly managed IMO with T&V being put over and above everyone else.

bakedbeans I would without a doubt murder someone who did that to a child of mine.

This shite again. No you bloody wouldn’t. In common with pretty much all the parents of murdered children*

And how do you know that?? Was JB mum ever given a chance? You can only go off what you would do.

If some one had done what they did to my child then yes- I think I would be capable.

Yes strong I suspect I would be very capable too.

So if you want to justify the cost of training Robert Thompson to train as an electrician, or to get a degree, you have to be able to explain to the public why this is better than the current system and why he deserves that chance when he took it away from James bulger

Because that's what humane and just system does, it is the bigger person, if you like. Robert Thompson's chances aren't weighed against the ones his actions denied James Bulger, but how to help a person to become better.

It would also be more respectful imo not to keep detailing the injuries

Why? It’s what happened to him. Some posters on here are glossing over the severity of what they did to him. Those boys should never have been released

Zany, I'm glad that no one has ever (well not to my knowledge) said that Denise was neglectful or anything like that for letting go of his hand. Given the close knit community of where she is from she had absolutely no reason to think that he wasn't safe. My DH who doesn't have a smidgen of empathy for anyone watched this and was so sad at listening to Denise who he describes as a woman who is more than reasonable.

I don’t know why people are comparing the Norway case. It was a different crime committed by 6 year olds. And Mary Bell. She murdered two children who she was looking after. Just because she hasn’t murdered again doesn’t make it right. Hardly a paragon of virtue is she? In any case I’m glad the age of criminal responsibility is 10.

If other countries wouldn’t have prosecuted 10 years olds, well that’s up to them. Im glad I live in a country where 10 year olds are detained for heinous crimes. However rare they are. The police officers in the case said that there are 10 year olds and there are 10 year olds. I’d take there word for it, seeing as they spent hours interviewing them. Particularly Thompson.

strong I'll try and summarise, about to go into a meeting soon. In terms of protecting women, although they have new identities, they are required to disclose their real identity to partners and they are allowed to not remain celibate and have a family. This is precisely what happened to Mary Bell, who is now both a mother and grandmother herself.

But you can see from just these threads alone, never mind comments at the time and ever since that not everyone agrees with that, ECHT.

Saying, "I know he tortured and murdered a trusting toddler but he deserves a second chance because society is bigger than that," hasn't convinced lots of people!

Some posters on here are glossing over the severity of what they did to him

Such as??????

So if you want to justify the cost of training Robert Thompson to train as an electrician, or to get a degree, you have to be able to explain to the public why this is better than the current system and why he deserves that chance when he took it away from James bulger

And I would 100% be able to look victims and family members in the eye when explaining this. The current system is expensive and achieves little. You can't lock people up forever, so either you allow them to be released as productive members of society who will spend their lives trying to repair what they did, or you write them off totally, leading to them doing the same thing over and over again and costing even more money.

I agree that some people are incorrigible and will re-offend even under the most constructive prison system. But we have a system now where the majority will reoffend and where the people who enter the system have often been through another system- the care system. What we are doing now is clearly not working and needs to be reformed. I don't event think that is a particularly radical view to hold.

If I discovered that a child of mine was having play dates in the care of sleeping and I found out their views regarding the punishment of children, I would never let my child play with their child again. Chilling and disturbing.

I think it's right that the parents of James Bulger want to know more about Venables during his time on release and just previous to it. I don't think Venables should have been released at the same time as Thompson as his life outside seemed to be chaotic. Both are on lifetime release anyway. Hopefully Venables will be kept in prison, for his sake and most importantly, for the safety of the wider public, especially the parents and relatives of James Bulger.

TemporaryScouser, not many things really get to me but this case always breaks my heart. Mainly because my child is James age now. And I know is she was in the Strand at that exact time and place she could have been the victim. If could have happened to anyone.

But you can see from just these threads alone, never mind comments at the time and ever since that not everyone agrees with that, ECHT. Saying, "I know he tortured and murdered a trusting toddler but he deserves a second chance because society is bigger than that," hasn't convinced lots of people!

I have not said that it will convince people, but that does not mean it isn't the right, moral and ethically proper way for a society to behave when faced with crimes committed by children. Or anyone else.

Not one person has glossed over the severity of what they did to James. But on the previous thread, someone actually took the time to type out a list of injuries and then actually said "I don't know if all of those are accurate or not". It caused revulsion and was rightly deleted. It is perfectly possible to discuss the case without listing what was done to that poor boy.

Seeing the programme yesterday and Denise pain was harrowing. To say the boys did not know what they were doing, of course they did, they were stopped various times along the wYand lied to people. I am glad they stood in that adult courtroom, to have the consequences of their crime, and to bring home the gravity of what they did, not to pussyfoot around it. Justice was not done for James and his parents, 8 years is a joke. They should have got30, been transferred into an adult prison.

echt I don’t think you can be a better person after doing such an evil act. I think regardless if they were damaged kids before it - such an evil act would have changed them irreversibly. How could a sane person ever reconcile with what they have done?

Which leads me to think why allowed out? How closely are they watched? Who is watching them ? Obviously they are not being watched well because V Is still being a monster

It couldn’t have been coincidence that both boys were released at the exact time. Looking back it was strange, surely they weren’t both magically rehabilitated at the same time?
I also think that the parents have a lot to answer for whom also get a life of anonymity and looked after financially for life I would guess.

shatner I don’t agree. I think his injuries need to be discussed when these two men/boys are discussed to keep the severity of what they did relevant.

If some one had done what they did to my child then yes- I think I would be capable.

That’s not what you said the first time. You said you’d “without doubt” murder them - which the experience of other parents suggests you wouldn’t.

What’s the point of even saying it anyway? That’s what I mean about the competitive outrage.

echt I don’t think you can be a better person after doing such an evil act -
so some perpetrators are written out of rehabilitation. Okaaay

How could a sane person ever reconcile with what they have done

Who is to say they are reconciled? The rehabilitation system can only do what it can do, review and improve; "no-one can ever know what goes on inside the human heart"- Braodchurch and fiction, but a good point.

Which leads me to think why allowed out? How closely are they watched? Who is watching them ?

You know what? You can Google this yourself to find out the conditions of their life outside.

So, for the wannabe child executioners and revenge seekers on this thread, For those who say that they would without a doubt, murder a child or person who did this to their child, can you point to all the instances where a victim has sought revenge on the perpetrator of their loved one’s murder?

Because the reality here is that we can all sit here in isolation saying that we know what we would do without a doubt when we’re not in a position to have to contemplate doing so in genuine circumstances, but in truth this simply doesn’t happen. There is not a long list of situations where the families and friends have gone after their loved ones’ killers and sought out their own justice in the face of what they believe to be insufficient justice from the state.

And no, it won’t have anything to do with them not having been given access to those perpetrators. Do you really think that Denise fergus doesn’t know where JV and RT are and what their new identities are or could be? Not that she will have sought them out but that some vigelanti’s haven’t sought her out over the years offering to, you know, give her the details or go and act out a bit of justice on her behalf? She of course won’t have made that public because it would just whip up more public hysteria and baying mob fury, and probably the same mob would turn on her for turning down the generous offers to go and pummel in the head of someone who might have been that child 25 years ago. But don’t kid yourself that victims couldn’t find out these details if they really wanted to. And yet they’re not, and they’re not going out there seeking what the vigelanti’s believe to be the right kind of justice.

So unless you can point to a catalogue of instances where victims have killed their child’s killer, the real answer is that no, you very likely would not go out and murder someone who killed your child, even though it’s easy to say that you would when you’re not faced with the ability to do so.

wanna I genuinely have no idea how it works, fortunately the only experience I have of the legal system is a spell of jury service but it is how juvenile courts operate. I don't know what the mechanism is that protects identities - I assume press injunctions are involved to stop it getting into the media but I have no idea how victims/victims families are dealt with. There are probably posters with knowledge of the workings of the system who could enlighten us. I just feel it would have been better for everyone, but primarily James's family if JV and RTs names and faces weren't in the public domain. They wouldn't have to face all the speculation and rumour, the state agencies wouldn't be under the same pressure to keep them out of the hands of mop justice and therefore could more easily have shifted them up to adult facility, as it was their exact ages were known and their faces possibly recognisable so fear of them being discovered in prison (or any dark haired 18 year old male moved to prison from young offenders institute at about the right time being beaten/killed because he could be JV or RT) probably played a part in decision to release them. If their identities weren't in the public domain there would have been more options.

They should have got30, been transferred into an adult prison.

But that didn't happen. We could discuss lots of should haves on this particular case, but it still wouldn't negate the terrible and despicable murder, as are all murders that are seemingly motiveless. Take the murder of Sophie Hook. Her murderer, Howard Hughes, was a known sex offender who couldn't be prosecuted because parents didn't want to put their children through a trial and also because of lack of evidence.