Neglect - confused

[IShouldGoToBed]

This is not so much an AIBU, more a WWYD, or even just a mmmmm.. what should I do?

I have a good ish friend. She has DCs around age 6 and 3. Lives in London.

This friend is quite rich - house worth nearly a million, they have a live in au pair, and my friend and her DH have good jobs.

However, little ones just seem so neglected. Both parents are always working (both more than full time with commutes), out with friends, at clubs. Friend often goes away on business for a week here and there. DCs r always picked up from school by au pair. Au pair is changed every 3 months. Friend hardly sees DCs, and on weekends dumps them with friends. Friend has been known to leave oldest DC in house on own for 30 mins here and there too (when au pair not in).

Friends House is a dump - never hoovered, stinks of cat poo, stuff everywhere. they have an au pair and could afford a cleaner if they r too busy.

My DS had play date today and I saw friends DCs bedrooms for the first time -- made me really sad. Bare walls, no toys (although there r toys in lounge so they do have toys), dirty old sheets on bed, no kiddy curtains - just old cream drapes, no books - just a big, empty room with two tiny beds and an old chest of draws. I felt so sad. My DCs have colourful walls, freshly (ish!!) washed bedding, teddies, toys, photos, books, bits and bobs they love on their desks, book cases, nice curtains. Their rooms are cosy and clean nice places to b.

Friends DCs r lovely but v quiet and they always look in need of a bath and fresh clothes.

Don't really know what I am asking. Just find it all confusing and sad. Any thoughts? Am I just being judgemental and this is all normal?

As I read this, I wondered whether you were talking about a family I used to know - quite well off, huge house, totally disinterested parents, filthy house (I'm talking hamburgers ground into the carpet rather than being picked up, bathroom and kitchen surfaces thick with spills and grime, floors covered in washing, litter, plates etc Really grim.

When I used to visit I'd just do some cleaning, wipe down the kitchen, for example, or put on some washing.

But my kids asked if we could stop going there because it was stinky and between that and some other issues, they went in the too hard box.

I feel sad for the children - as you do for your friend's' children- but I don't think you can do much other than give the children a nice time when you see them.

It isn't unlawful to have a dirty house or to show v little interest in your children.

Below is the definition of Neglect used in Ireland. I really don't think what you describe necessarily fits here but there are definite red flags and these parents I think could do with some sort of family support intervention. If these parents were living in poverty and treating their kids this way they would definitely have been visited by a family support worker by now. Having money does not mean you know how to look after children properly.

Neglect

Neglect occurs when a child does not receive adequate care or supervision to the extent that the child is harmed physically or developmentally. It is generally defined in terms of an omission of care, where a child’s health, development or welfare is impaired by being deprived of food, clothing, warmth, hygiene, medical care, intellectual stimulation or supervision and safety. Emotional neglect may also lead to the child having attachment difficulties. The extent of the damage to the child’s health, development or welfare is influenced by a range of factors. These factors include the extent, if any, of positive influence in the child’s life as well as the age of the child and the frequency and consistency of neglect.

The following are features of child neglect:
• Children being left alone without adequate care and supervision
• Malnourishment, lacking food, unsuitable food or erratic feeding
• Non-organic failure to thrive, i.e. a child not gaining weight due not only to malnutrition but also emotional deprivation
• Failure to provide adequate care for the child’s medical and developmental needs, including intellectual stimulation
• Inadequate living conditions – unhygienic conditions, environmental issues, including lack of adequate heating and furniture
• Lack of adequate clothing
• Inattention to basic hygiene
• Lack of protection and exposure to danger, including moral danger, or lack of supervision appropriate to the child’s age
• Persistent failure to attend school
• Abandonment or desertion

Slightly grasping at straws but...my eldest DS was very asthmatic, so had a bedroom that many would have thought of as 'spartan'. Lino on the floor, no toys, all surfaces wipe-clean. It was easier to control the dust that way. Maybe your friend has a similar regime?

Although I'd think you'd know if a chld was that asthmatic...

Isn’t Katie Price’s house a bit like this, apparently...?

I think that if the parents were trying to keep asthma under control they would err on the side of too much cleaning rather than too little, all over the house.

I have some experience of 'neglect' in that our two adopted children were taken into care from a very neglectful situation.
The lack of time spent with their children and the fact that the Au pairs are changed so often is a worry for me. A lack of interest in their children is concerning. Our children's BM, although in a different situation money wise had no interest in her children and always put herself or her latest man first.
I would contact the NSPCC for advice and maybe the safeguarding team at school. I wouldn't discuss it with your friend as they may well not take kindly to your interference. My mum was a Health Visitor and always said that it was the better off mums who wouldn't take any advice that were the problem as they always thought they knew best and that my mum's role was to look after the kids on the 'estate'!

Well I think it sounds shit and like neglect, even if not 'bad' enough for SS to be interested.

It would be considered as emotional neglect at the very least by a decent school.
I work in KS1, we have a couple of cases like this which were flagged and referred to our welfare officer.
I personally referred one. Different at pair child minder every couple of weeks, parents never attend ANY school events, if parents evening. Expensive designer clothes on non uniform days, but massively big for them, and school uniform was dirty or smelled damp, never had a snack for break. It was raised with parents. All of a sudden things improved, homework being done, huge leap in reading ability etc. It lasted 4 weeks and totally relapsed. This is in itself a red flag. The care is not for the kids but for how the adults themselves are perceived. They're both lawyers. Massive house, reception areas clean, lovely, books laid out. Kids bedrooms desolate. Sleeping bags not duvets etc.

I think the lack of toys in the bedroom is a red herring here.

My ds has no toys in his bedroom because he doesn't sleep if they are in there. He has a playroom and our living room is also full of plastic shit toys.

But you would never look at his bedroom and think he is uncared for. He has bookcases, an easy chair with cushions on it, teddies, pictures, a star projector night light etc. It is cosy and has clearly been put together with his needs in mind.

This is very different from a bare room with dirty sheets etc. This and the being left alone and the cat shit do sound really wrong.

There is a big difference between an untidy house and a squalid one and animal shit lying around crosses that line imo.

You see OP you've done yourself no favours here (imo anyway) by adding... My DCs have colourful walls, freshly (ish!!) washed bedding, teddies, toys, photos, books, bits and bobs they love on their desks, book cases, nice curtains. Their rooms are cosy and clean nice places to b.

It kind of discredits your concern that these children might be truly neglected, because it literally has nothing to do with it, does it?

It kind of smacks of 'point scoring' rather than genuine concern for the children.

I totally disagree with this. What I get from it is the OP pointing out that the parents can't even be arsed to make their kids environment a nice, safe clean space for them. It's cold, bare and empty looking, with dirty bedding - that's not normal. Along with everything else it's emotional abuse at the very least.

There are toys, just not in their bedroom. Arguably this is best practice as the kids will actually sleep instead of playing.
I'd be more concerned with iPads and TVs in the bedroom

Why are you focusing on the least serious details. Did you miss the bit where OP said the 6yo is left home alone and they're living amongst cat shit?

Hi eltonjohn - hit hearsay, friend told me she has left DC on his own in a few separate occasions. She thinks 6 is plenty old enough.

Hysterical post? - well I'm sorry if it sounded like that! it wasn't meant to! It was late when I posted last night! I'm genuinely confused by this family and genuinely concerned for the DCs. But appreciate I am not great at explaining things.

'not' not 'hit'

thanks 'getoutofthatgarden' - yes, I am concerned about DC being left alone in house, and that the bedroom is bleak and dirty (literally nothing in it but beds and a chest of drawyers) and there is cat poo on the carpets that stinks. I am not sure when the to and iPads comments arose from, but these children definitely don't have those! (I know that's not a bad thing!)

TV! Not 'to'! Gggrrrr smart phones!

I agree it sounds like neglect. Poor kids.

the constant cycling through of au pairs worries me too. Are they quitting or being fired? It's weird.

YANBU but I have no idea how you would even go about making the situation better for them. :(

Yes I would be concerned about this situation. But they are your friends. I think I would have to talk to them about it. Not a nice conversation to have to have I know, but I'd approach it with a "I've noticed x... if you're struggling, can I help?"

What are the kids themselves like? Are they undernourished? Are they dirty or smelly? How do they behave? Any compulsive behaviours suggesting anxiety? Particularly withdrawn? Are they developmentally normal? Is their speech/fluency appropriate for their age?
There has been a lot of focus on the externals here, but how is this effecting the children?

We've never had toys in bedrooms. Both ds's had huge leather ottoman boxes in lounge, to match sofa, with all toys in.
All playing was done in lounge.
Plain walls and plain curtains in their bedrooms. I don't like the childish bedroom decorations.

And?

Now they both have x boxes in their rooms..... but.....,

Why do they change their au pair every 3 months ?
I find that odd too

If they never see their parents, live in a dirty house, and are not washed and dressed adequately, I would agree that they are not being parented well. I think your only option is to speak to your friend about this, because I strongly doubt they meet any criteria for official intervention.

However I think your reaction to their bedroom possibly reflects your own past struggles. Most people I know (including myself) don't decorate their children's rooms in a child based theme. Actually you probably would not like DS's room, which has bare cream walls, the minimum of furniture (wooden, not overtly childish), and no toys because he doesn't play in his bedroom.

Worry about the other stuff, but many of us dislike kiddy curtains etc.

This might help organise your thoughts on it Graded Care Profile