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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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C4 now - the James Bulger case **Trigger Warning - Contains Info about the case** (Title edited by MNHQ)

999 replies

Hairgician · 05/02/2018 21:36

Sat watching this now.

I do not accept the view that those 2 boys were treated unfairly. They murdered that poor little boy and they knew what they were doing and that it was wrong.

They should be rotting in jail. Aibu to say justice not served??

OP posts:
Morphene · 07/02/2018 15:38

shatners It isn't a competition, but I genuinely believe there is something misplaced about all the shock/horror/let them rot narrative around this case.

People have done massively more intrinsically evil and even shocking things. The extent to which a particular crime happens to capture the public imagination shouldn't be a factor in determining what happens to the people who committed it.

There have been studies that show people are more likely to hate/vilify someone who kills 1 or 2 people than someone who kills dozens.

We should examine the reasons why people want to single out these specific baby killers as opposed to any number of adults who have been convicted of the same thing.

Surely the fact they were children at the time should make us less inclined to ascribe them as evil than adults that do the same thing - yet somehow the opposite happens...somehow people think it is a worse crime for a child to commit than an adult.

That a child must be more intrinsically evil to kill than an adult.

That simply doesn't hold up to any sort of logical or rational analysis.

hungryhenryshouldeatelsewhere · 07/02/2018 15:38

He clearly has an unhealthy interest in doing horrific things to children. If he didn't understand what he did to James (which he totally did, hence the age of criminal responsibility but that's a different debate) then the rehabilitation would have worked, wouldn't it? He has now been locked up TWICE since then for offences which are abhorrent in their own right, albeit paling in comparison to his first offence. Does this paint a picture of someone who isn't inherently evil? This man cannot be rehabilitated and should never be given the chance again. Sometimes I wish we had capital punishment, there's nothing to be done for this scum of the earth so we might as well do away with him for good.

ZanyMobster · 07/02/2018 15:38

Crunchy - that may be but there isn't a specific order of horrificness. The circumstances surrounding the case, the fact there were young children involved all add to it.

SaucyJack · 07/02/2018 15:39

"I'm old enough to remember the case and at the time there was a lot of coverage about these boys having access to violent 18+ videos and video games."

This particular press theory has been long discredited.

Neil Venables was known to have hired various mainstream horror films from Blockbusters in the months leading up to the murder, but no one involved in the case- not least Jon- has ever suggested that the boys themselves watched the films at his father's house.

Any resemblance to a particular horror franchise was considered to be co-incidental.

ZanyMobster · 07/02/2018 15:42

Morphene - its not the fact that it's a baby that's been killed by young children even it's what they actually did to him that makes it horrific. Not sure why it matters though, it's obvious why it upsets people so much surely?

RoseWhiteTips · 07/02/2018 15:44

Sometimes I wish we had capital punishment, there's nothing to be done for this scum of the earth so we might as well do away with him for good

It is chilling to read such a view on a forum such as this, in this the 21st Century.

ChaosNeverRains · 07/02/2018 15:45

maybe they typed the incidents as some MN's were young/not born and dont know the truly awful things were done well, if people feel the need to remind themselves of the details there are perfectly good sources of the case on the internet without people feeling the need to sit and type them out.

To that end I do have a question though and it’s not meant to offend. But WRT John Venables and the crime he (and hopefully others who he has associated with) have been convicted of, the advances in the internet and electronic communications presumably mean that these are newly created crimes, crimes which didn’t exist before Venables was released from jail.

To that end, has the number of sex offences now increased as although presumably people did produce images way back, these wouldn’t have been as “easily” distributable as they are since the innovation of the internet.

Or has the advancement in digital technology enabled more child sex offenders to go underground and commit crimes from the comfort of their own homes rather than looking for actual victims to abuse?

It’s my understanding that possessing child images doesn’t generally lead to offenders abusing in person, but if that is true, then surely the number of sex abuse cases must have increased exponentially over the past twenty years? And if that’s the case, surely more can be done? Beginning with the means to block access to the dark web for a start, as this is where most of that kind of stuff originates isn’t it?

Now I’ll freely admit that I know nothing about the dark web, but I do know that it’s not your average search engine and that generally people go there to remain undetected and to be able to commit fairly heinous acts or download pretty awful material. But we do have some powers over the net in this country? ISP’s certainly do, so why can they not just block the access to it? Would that change anything?

babyccinoo · 07/02/2018 15:48

I have raised this exact point many times and no one can seem to answer it. If they were actually neglected and abused then why apparently were no siblings on either side removed? Or were they and it has never been reported on?

Thompson's brother was removed from the family before the murder.

We don't anything about the families since 1993 because they have new identities.

NotASingleFuckToGive · 07/02/2018 15:53

In 1997, Mother Theresa's passing away faded into obscurity, due to the mass outpouring of grief already in flow from to Princess Diana's death.

In the same way, Venables and Thompson were on trial for murder at the same time as the 4 teenagers who tortured and killed Suzanne Capper.
Although she was 16 years old and not a toddler like James, sixteen to me is still a young girl. Can anyone even remember her case?
Or remember her murderers' names, as they have the names of Thompson and Venables embedded in their memory?

Lizzie48 · 07/02/2018 15:56

I think the horror people feel is down to the fact that these boys planned it in advance, and had already tried to snatch another child. Whilst looking like totally innocent little boys. How would boys so young even think of doing such things?

People don't like to think that children can be so cruel.

Also the fact that they did it in plain sight, under everyone's noses. His poor mum had only turned away for an instant to pay for pork chops. It's just so chilling for anyone who is a parent. Sad

Morphene · 07/02/2018 15:59

zany I'm not going to read any injury lists because I find it sickening to do so, but by shear injury number many people have done far worse to babies over the last few years, let alone all the way back to 30 years ago.

The point is that the horror people feel about this specific case is completely irrational in comparison to the way they feel about many similar and some far worse cases. It would be nice if people could realise that their feelings are disproportionate and hence keep their demands that children should faced the death penalty to themselves.

Winteriscoming18 · 07/02/2018 16:03

I do believe people are born evil in this case these two were. I remember Denise said she saw one of them and knew who he was when he was a young man and froze.
Can you imagine not knowing if your sons killer is walking the same streets, serving you at the till. Venables has a job working at Pizza Hut an establishment working with families who unknowingly employed a child killer and a paedophile! They completely failed the bulgar family and the community. Thompson may or not be rehabilitated just because there’s been no information about doesn’t make he an upstanding citizen.

Oblomov18 · 07/02/2018 16:08

I disagree. I think some of the details did need listing.
I wasn't being flippant. I think some of the posts on this thread, who have been sympathetic towards the 2 boys, seem to have forgotten/not known how awful what they actually did WAS.

That's why I posted.

babyccinoo · 07/02/2018 16:13

I think the horror people feel is down to the fact that these boys planned it in advance, and had already tried to snatch another child.

Lizzie, I don't think they planned the killing. They wanted to 'grab a kid' yes, but I don't think they planned to kill him. They had talked of leaving him at the canal or on the traffic. Thompson has previously left his younger brother at the canal as well. As has been mentioned on the thread, the events of the day evolved.

MerryInthechelseahotel · 07/02/2018 16:15

I agree Rose

Queenoftheblitz · 07/02/2018 16:16

Saucyjack thanks for clearing that up.

babyccinoo · 07/02/2018 16:16

I think some of the posts on this thread, who have been sympathetic towards the 2 boys, seem to have forgotten/not known how awful what they actually did WAS.

As has been pointed out many times, people are pointing out possible mitigating factors, not being sympathetic. It's fairly obvious sympathy is reserved for James' family.

No one has forgotten what happened to him. And if they want to read about it, they can find out for themselves, you shouldn't force the details on people.

Elendon · 07/02/2018 16:20

I think some of the posts on this thread, who have been sympathetic towards the 2 boys, seem to have forgotten/not known how awful what they actually did WAS.

Well seeing as you are so good at writing lists Oblomov18 perhaps you could provide a list of those who are sympathetic towards the two boys

Because you know what? You sound like a thug vigilante. You don't frighten me.

Eggzandbacon · 07/02/2018 16:25

My issue has always been they have been considered worse than adult murderers.
Even now the film of adults outside the court braying for their blood is pretty distasteful. As is the talk of hanging them. They are STILL CHILDREN! our society does not condone the killing or hurting of children - you have to stick to that or all is lost. Branding them 'evil' isn't helpful, it's pointless and part of the reason we are no farther further understanding why this happened.

There are plenty of adults who have done horrendous things and they haven't been put on the front of papers (wrongly).
People have been manipulated into targeting these boys specifically by a press who wanted to make money.

Everything about this was handled wrongly and public opinion was taken into account far too much.
They shouldn't have had a adult trial and their names shouldn't have been released.

They don't seem to have know ever what to do with them and don't know - that's the travesty. They haven't learned from Mary Bell for instance.
The whole thing was a fuck up and who else has been held accountable?

Jux · 07/02/2018 16:32

I agree with the poster ^^ who objected to Kelvin McKenzie. That man is scum and shouldn't be given a platform for anything. If anyone whipped this case up into a frenzy, it was him. Disgusting little piece of shit.

Eltonjohnssyrup · 07/02/2018 16:33

They are STILL CHILDREN!

Well this is part of the problem. Venables is not a child anymore. And he's committed some awful crimes as an adult. Yet he is still preserved in aspic as a 10 year old who deserves protection.

He could move in round the corner from any child in the country and his right to protection would trump the rights of those children to be protected from him.

Lizzie48 · 07/02/2018 16:35

Nobody really knows what they planned to do; obviously they were a bad influence on each other, egging each other on, that's what happens so often in bullying. The boys both lied, blaming each other, so there's no way of knowing what was going on in their heads.

One question, though, why didn't they just hand James over to one of the adults who approached them? That would have been an easy way out.

@Eggzandbacon Venables is not a child now, he's in his 30s and he still has an unhealthy interest in children, clearly.

ZanyMobster · 07/02/2018 16:35

Morphene - if you do not know the injuries that occurred then you cannot possibly compare. He had 42 injuries, unfortunately many of these were listed in Ralph's book and I would never retype them as they are awful, I wish I'd not seen them to be honest as it is.

I do not agree that it is disproportionate. How do you know how individuals feel about other cases, it is the press that make you believe peoples feelings are disproportionate. It also is a high profile, highly reported case, as we're the murders of Holly and Jessica on Sohum. We should feel shocked, sickened and so on. Why 25 years on should we feel any differently. That doesn't take away our upset, anger etc over other cases that we know about.

However I do totally agree that asking for the death penalty for 2 10yo is disgusting, personally I don't agree with such a short sentence especially given the reports about the true lack of rehabitation that actually occurred. There is no answer but to give children the opportunity to be rehabilitated but the courts do need to ensure that this is the case before release and that they have some back home and are accountable for their decisions.

lookingforaline18 · 07/02/2018 16:37

I am glad that children are given a chance to be rehabilitated

I just can't see why those two deserved that chance though. What they did was fucking evil and unforgivable. Their faces disgust me everytime they pop up. I don't care if they were children themselves- James didn't get a second chance at life so they shouldn't have either. They should have been locked up for a very long time.

Eggzandbacon · 07/02/2018 16:38

I'm not talking about now, I'm talking about then and how they were treated.

Now he shouldn't be treated differently to any other criminal. Apart from keeping his identity secret - which wouldn't be such an issue if they hadn't put their names/pictures everywhere 25 years ago.

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