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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU...grapes...

203 replies

LokiBear · 04/02/2018 20:26

Dd1 is 6.5. I still cut her grapes in half. She wants me to stop. She helped me make her lunch for tomorrow earlier and asked me to leave them whole. I said that she must make sure she eats them properly. I'm not sat here debating cutting them up. Wwyd?

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 07/02/2018 11:06

And if people really don't want to take any unnecessary risks, then they wouldn't give grapes at all, let alone cut them up. Or hot dogs, or sweets, or carrots, or meat, or peanuts or cookies...

dontforgetto · 07/02/2018 13:50

notbadconsidering I appreciate the point you are trying to make in re-framing how proportional the risk of choking on a grape is compared to other food items, however, the study you linked to did not actually find eight children died over a decade period in North America.

You quoted research into 26 paediatric hospitals, which is probably just under a quarter of the total number of paediatric hospitals in North America and a much smaller proportion of all emergency rooms in the region. A person choking is going to be taken to the nearest facility.

The other thing to consider when comparing data collected on a another continent is cultural differences and variation. I would imagine that hot dogs are eaten far more frequently in the USA than in the UK. I am not sure about candy/sweet consumption and how that might compare.

In short, statistics can be useful, but need to be analysed carefully.

blackberryfairy · 07/02/2018 13:53

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blackberryfairy · 07/02/2018 13:54

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dontforgetto · 07/02/2018 13:59

Also, people bragging or smugly declaring that they don't cut up grapes... I find that odd. Do you think that is some kind of achievement for you or your DC? Cut your DC's grapes or don't cut them, but there is nothing superior about good fortune.

HairBlues · 07/02/2018 14:12

I cut up my DCs grapes and will carry on doing so, probably until they leave home Grin

Seriously though - absolutely yes I cut grapes up. There's something about the smooth round shape that would make them easy to swallow down whole and get stuck. Yes kids can choke on anything but smooth and round is definitely worse, its not comparable to hot dogs. They have edges when cut or bitten. I wouldn't give kids peanuts either for the same reason as grapes.

HairBlues · 07/02/2018 14:16

Notbad - your stats won't include all the hundreds (or thousands) of near misses though, where the parents panicked and banged the back of their children's back, or hung them upside down by their ankles like a relative of mine did when their 3 year old choked on a sweet (this was back in the day, not as much first aid info, and yes it did actually work when slapping the back had failed and the child was turning blue). Now that relative's child didn't die, so it wouldn't be recorded in any data anywhere, but it was definitely a near miss. Literally seconds from death.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2018 17:44

Blackberry - you can't discuss necessary risk vs unnecessary risk without taking into account the concept of absolute vs relative risk.

The latter is the one to steer by. Without reference to this, you risk never leaving the house and spoonfeeding children puree.

Wrapping children in cotton wool calms adults' anxiety, but it is really bad for the children.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2018 17:45

HairBlues, babies choke on milk. Should parents insist on feeding tubes?

TheEagle · 07/02/2018 17:47

dontforget, the parents who don’t cut up grapes are superior because they’ve taken the time to teach their children to chew!

There seems to be an assumption that those of us who cut up the grapes haven’t taught our children to chew. Fwiw my children chew the slice up grapes before they swallow them.

Again, I don’t see any hysteria here, just people saying they do cut up grapes. I’ve witnessed a 9 yo choking on a grape. She didn’t die, I dislodged the grape.

I also know a nurse, a friend of my SILs, who died after choking on some apple. I don’t think it’s “hysterical” to mention those incidents.

Crunkly · 07/02/2018 17:52

Just cut them. It takes like 2 seconds and not worth the worry. You won’t be able to stop thinking about it otherwise.
It’s ok and normal to be protective of your child as long as it doesn’t stop them doing normal / important things. I don’t think this is really something she’s going to look back on and feel she’s missed out.
The risk is real though small, but easy to avoid.

blackberryfairy · 07/02/2018 18:12

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mathanxiety · 07/02/2018 18:24

The downside of cutting grapes for children who have a full set of teeth is that in failing to get a hold of your own anxiety you risk infantilising them.

This is going to hurt them a lot more in the long run.

When we have children we become anxious about a lot of things. We are conscious everything that could hurt them and we try to minimise risk. This is fine as far as it goes. The trick is to walk that fine line between being sensible about it and letting that fear of danger get the better of us.

If you are still cutting grapes for children who are capable of chewing them, I think you are asking your children to indulge something in you that is not really healthy.

blackberryfairy · 07/02/2018 19:08

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NotBadConsidering · 07/02/2018 20:04

dontforgetto

You're correct that the stats I reference won't include every child who has a choked to death on a grape. But if you consider, in relation to the OP's child that in those stats, only two children over the age of 5 died. Now if you double, triple, quadruple, even multiply by a factor of 10 to account for children over the age of 5 dying that may not be accounted for, it's still a small number. Then if you compare that to the number of whole grapes consumed, and you're still effectively saying that cutting grapes for children over 5 reduces the risk of choking to death from 1 in several million to 1 in several more million.

It also doesn't matter about cultural variations in this instance; as it happens the USA consumes more grapes per capita than the UK, so even though they might eat more hot dogs, that won't change the UK's overall risk for grapes.

What the stats do validate as best as possible however, that other foods that are commonly consumed in other cultures are also causes of fatalities. The focus on grapes, in the context of the best evidence we have, isn't valid. It may be the case that if every single fatality and every single near miss was actually recorded (for the sake of HairBlues) that things other than grapes are more problematic. For example, I know a boy who has severe spastic quadriplegic cerebral palsy after a hypoxic ischaemic event, choking on a piece of Lego aged 6.

blackberryfairy yes I do understand the necessary risk argument. My point about immunisation was to, again, give context of how low the risk from grapes actually is.

At no point whatsoever have I said not to cut up grapes. What I am pointing out is the rational view that cutting up grapes drops the risk of fatal incident from 1 in several million to 1 in several more million. Why not reduce it to zero, and just not give grapes at all? Grapes aren't necessary. You say cutting them up has no downside, but it doesn't reduce the risk to zero. You have listed non-essential things your DC do that are significantly more risky than eating whole grapes. The risk of death from road trauma in Asia from a tuktuk must be way higher than that of choking to death on a grape. Why the discrepancy?

You're correct that cutting them isn't a big deal overall, and I'm not getting into the argument about psychology, and what we teach our kids etc. All I'm querying from anyone is whether they take the same risk mitigations with other things that they do with grapes and ask if they think it's reasonable e.g. cutting up other foods, bike riding, general life.

blackberryfairy · 07/02/2018 20:24

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LokiBear · 07/02/2018 20:42

I'm really not worried about infantilising my dd. She was helping to make her own packed lunch. I don't think cut up grapes will lead the therapists couch. Grin

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 07/02/2018 21:22

You keep saying it was 8 fatalities across the USA. It wasn't, it was only at 26 specific medical establishments. It doesn't include all other medical establishments, non-fatal incidents, or those that were dealt with through first aid (heimlich manoeuvre etc.)

Well as it happens, it was 26 centres of major population covering most of the major cities in North America. And only 2 of those children were over 5. And as I said above, even if that is a massive underestimation by a factor of 10 or more, it's still a very small risk.

It's a risk that you can significantly mitigate, for 'free'. So you'd be silly not to.

But in the context of statistics, do you think you're "significantly" mitigating the risk if you drop something from being very rare, to bring a bit more rare? And I'm struggling to see the benefit in deliberately raising your risk of death on roads in Asia. It's perfectly possible to experience Asia fully and mitigate risk: don't ride a scooter with no helmet, avoid tuktuks etc, all of which make more statistical sense than cutting up grapes.

And given you're not happy with being told not to cut up grapes by other people, it's also a bit hypocritical to call people silly if they're able to look at the risks of cutting vs not cutting and decide it's not worth it, particularly in over 5s. It's not "silly", it's a sensible approach to risk management.

HairBlues · 07/02/2018 23:29

@ mathanxiety Wed 07-Feb-18 17:45:21 "HairBlues, babies choke on milk. Should parents insist on feeding tubes?"

Yawn.

crunchymint · 07/02/2018 23:47

Humans are terrible at assessing risk and applying it to their lives.
Horse riding is far more dangerous than grapes for example.

FuckyNellYaBastad · 07/02/2018 23:56

I’ve never cut a grape - I taught the kids to hold it and bite it in half before popping it in. My ds did choke on a piece of beef once though. There are hazards everywhere

mathanxiety · 08/02/2018 07:44

blackberryfairy
"Not a fantasy of how it leads to you wrapping your children up in cotton wool (mine are primary school aged and have just come back from swimming and are helping to make pizza) but an actual real consequence."

Because what you've responded with is exactly that - a ridiculous, hyperbolic fantasy about some imaginary consequences that you think it would have to cut up grapes.

If I am not mistaken, you are telling me it's hyperbolic fantasy to focus on the psychological ramifications of over-protectiveness and the dangers inherent in letting your unreasonable and irrational anxiety run away with you. There are well-recognised consequences to parents putting their own emotional needs before the child's - which is what is happening when parents indulge their anxiety like this.

A few examples of consequences if this becomes a pattern (and apparently other foods including lollipops, satsumas, raw carrots, sausages and more are also cut up in your particular case, blackberryfairy)......

The over-protective parent prevents them from learning life lessons - he or she is doing the equivalent of giving a man a fish instead of teaching him to fish for himself.
What parents should be doing wrt grapes (and all other food) is teaching children to eat with their mouths shut (and therefore no speaking with food in the mouth), to sit still while they eat, to put only a bite sized piece of food into their mouths. Or to bite grapes in half themselves. Teaching them a skill emphasises a parent's confidence in their ability to acquire competence. The result is a net increase in self esteem. The opposite is true when the parent takes over the task herself.

They will lose confidence in a parent's ability to handle whatever their lives really consist of (which they will hide from you) if the parent is over-protective. They will learn from seeing other children's lunches that cutting grapes is an odd thing to do and will wonder why their mum cut theirs. They may feel a bit impatient of a parent, or even a bit ashamed of the parent for her over-protective approach.

The over-protective or inappropriately protective parent creates a wedge between her children and herself when she asks them to bear with her over something that is so important to he - apparently a matter of life or death - but that is not seen that way by the parents of other children. It's perceived by children as 'fussing' or 'treating me like a baby', or 'mum over-reacting'. Feeling they are a baby makes children feel ashamed of themselves once they get beyond 5ish.

A perception on the part of children that they are babies (arising from recognition that mum is babying them) will cause them to fear that they are in fact not competent enough to manage commonly eaten foods - parental over-protectiveness affects their developing sense of who they are and how competent their parent believes they are capable of becoming. They can feel they are inferior to other children, and they can become anxious. It's not really very funny to joke about cutting grapes for them until they are 18. Children should be gradually developing ever-increasing mastery over all aspects of their lives from the time of potty training on. A sense of mastery and self-efficacy is a very significant predictor of ability to handle life's challenges in a healthy way.

The perception that a parent over-reacts damages lines of communication between parent and child. The expectation of an ott reaction from a parent makes children, tweens and teens keep things to themselves. What this means irl is that you won't hear what happened at a given party because your teen fears she would (a) never hear the end of it, or (b) never be allowed out again if she told you the details and you indulged in your typical response - taking away agency and not acknowledging that a child can learn to minimise risk or conquer a situation herself (whether by teaching her to chew with mouth shut or by teaching her to handle herself in situations of peer pressure).

Children who learn that things outside of themselves hold such power over them can become fearful and inclined to shy away from challenge. They look to someone else to take charge and to make decisions. Teaching children practical, sensible ways that they themselves can use to minimise danger and stepping back to let them try the methods out increase their confidence.

If they don't rebel against over-protectiveness or if a parent doesn't back off as a result of their complaints, they will become conditioned to indulging the parent's anxiety. 'Minding mum' makes the child responsible for the parents's feelings, which is a scary thing for a child. Children need to be confident that a parent is able to maintain her own equilibrium. They need to know the parent has a sense of perspective. Boundary setting and boundary policing are required here on the part of the anxious parent. Solving problems in a practical way that involves allowing children agency is an example of setting good boundaries. Parents set a sensible limit on their anxiety and they acknowledge their children's capacity to learn.

(The over-protective parent will be lucky if rebellion is direct btw, and the thing that is bothering the child is explicitly stated. Many children rebel covertly in ways that reveal low self esteem and low sense of self efficacy.)

............
There is a contradiction here in the approach to grapes and risk. Either they are or they are not an absolute danger. If grapes represent an absolute danger even to children with a full set of teeth, why would you buy them? Even if the danger is relative, why take the risk?

Grapes are not necessary to a happy and healthy life.

blackberryfairy · 08/02/2018 10:13

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

blinkineckmum · 08/02/2018 10:19

Teach her to chew.

claraschu · 08/02/2018 11:23

Blackberryfairy sorry I sounded patronising. I certainly never meant to imply that you, personally, don't like statistics...

It is true that people are not good at assessing risk or looking dispassionately at statistics. A few obvious examples: fear of flying; huge outpourings of grief and money for individual tragic stories and relative indifference to tragedies which affect huge groups of people; fear of Muslim terrorists in the US (toddlers with guns kill more people each year); the way the risks of various drugs and alcohol are assessed; the way the relative risks of rugby, horseback riding and other sports are assessed; etc.

I was trying to support NotBadConsidering who being ignored as she pointed out that other foods are riskier than grapes, which seems to be clear, (especially when you consider how much are ubiquitous grapes are than hot dogs, as far as I can tell).