Researching/viewing universities with one twin, refusing to do the same with the other?

[BigSandyBalls2015]

Two DDs (17), year 12. One works hard, is motivated, has a clear(ish) view of what she'd like to do as a job - I'm helping her research unis and we're finding out about open days etc.

I've just told my other DD that I won't be doing that for her - she's still in bed! It's gone 2pm in the afternoon and I'm feeling ragey. She had one lesson today which she should have gone in for this morning but she said it wasn't worthwhile, she'd benefit more from being at home and studying ...... well that hasn't happened, as I knew it wouldn't. She's in bed glued to laptop and phone .... youtube shit, not studying.

She's now got the hump that I've told her to forget about uni, absolutely no point in wasting our weekends/taking time off work to look at them when she's so damn lazy and unmotivated. If she did manage to scrape a levels and get on a course what is the point of her ending up with a huge debt if she'd spend most of it in bed, missing lectures, or out on the piss. She's already said that uni appeals for the party side of it. No way am I funding it, or part funding it, as I understand most parents have to top up loans etc.

And breathe.

I'd turn the internet off but I'm working from home .

Please don't threaten your daughter with removing your support for her (which is what she will hear) because she isn't doing what you think she should be - there could be lots of reasons, she may not even know quite why she'd rather avoid the school work / Uni run.

I teach undergraduates from 18 yrs up and 18 is a lot younger than some parents seem to realise / are willing to admit. I meet students who have been seriously scared by parental threats of the 'You either go to university or get yourself a job, there'll be no lounging about here...' etc. Kids that age don't have the get-outs that I did at 18, when I could claim housing benefit and move out into a cheap shared house and get a succession of slightly dossy jobs. Living independently at 18 is not an option for many kids now, they know how unlikely it is they'll be able to step into a job that's sufficiently well-paid. Their lives are often financially in their parents' hands.

I sympathise with the students I talk to who are unhappy because they went to uni before they were ready, went without really making choices but did it to please their parents and teachers, are on the wrong course and so on. Sometimes I can spot them when they're being taken on the 'uni round' of open days with their far more enthusiastic parents. The burden of feeling they might not fulfil their parents' expectations can be crippling, especially as they are so aware now of the debts racking up.

If I were able to make one piece of education legislation it would be that no-one was allowed to attend university until two years after leaving school. Those two years to be spent doing anything useful and outward-looking but supported by their family in whatever ways possible. 18-year-olds don't need to go to university but they do need support.

I wonder if it comes across as clearly to your daughters as it does in this thread how much more positively you feel about one than the other. I suspect it does, and I imagine that's quite the demotivator. I can't quite believe how unpleasant you were about her in your OP - "she's so damn lazy" "if she manages to scrape a-levels" "she'd just end up out on the piss" etc etc. Can't help but feel there's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy going on - not only do you not value her achievements (because they don't align with your academic expectations) but you've now come to expect very little from her. And now you're giving her the clear message that unless she wants the same things as you, you're not even willing to give her any of your time or attention.

@recklessgran's advice is very sound.

I think you’re over invested in both twins. You “see” only one outcome, your vision of their futures.

One can do no wrong, the other is shutting your dreams down, by going on strike.

Get a life of your own. You sound wound up to 90.
I suggest therapy and some honest talking about how worried you are for both of them, but you’re standing back from both of them, and then.....

Let it go! let it go! Back off, it’s none of your business.

peachgreen Op does not really favour one over the other, but I assume being a parent does also mean being honest, and not putting your head in the sand...

Well.i never got taken to university's ,no visits,no money, no help...I managed just fine..applied myself.went on the train with £20 in my pocket,having never been to that town before.i got my degree just fine..it never occurred to me to expect my parents to help.im sure she will be fine weather you help her or not

I would ask her to let you know if she wants any help researching her options for after A levels. Then don’t say anymore. It’ll save the resentment that his building up. She’ll either ask, do it herself or not do anything. At some point she’ll realise that life is passing her by and her sister and friends all have plans and are doing things. There are degree apprenticeships available.

@OfaFrenchmind2 You can tell by the way she talks about them that she absolutely does favour one over the other!

I'd argue that expecting them both to excel academically above all else when one clearly isn't interested, and refusing to support her unless she does, is the epitome of burying your head in the sand. Time for OP to accept the fact that her daughters want different things from life.

Having just read the full thread...I'd have to say op you are way way too involved .how are either of them meant to figure their life out for themselves with all your expectations...sorry ,and I mean that kindly in the nicest possible way 💐

Another uni lecturer here and I rather agree with ByGaslight.

There are plenty of other options to university, there are plenty of other ways of attending university that do not involve signing up to whatever you are able to think of aged 18.

University is a wonderful opportunity if learning in this particular way, and learning these particular things, is what you really want to spend
your time doing. If not, it can be the most miserable and lonely of places.

I love my workplace, I think we offer some great courses- but my own children will almost certainly not be going. Not because I think it's a bad idea in general, but because they think it's a bad idea for them.

My dd, though bright enough, always knew university wasn't for her:. When she couldn't get into drama school (which was what she did want) she stayed at home and worked for 2 years until she could get in. Absolutely fine, not a failure in any way. And if she hadn't been able to get into drama school, then working would still have been a better option for her.

I don’t know whether this will work for your children, but I have a friend who motivated her two children where the older was lazy and the younger a good worker with a financial bribe (my kids are at primary school!). I can’t remember the exact sums (it was a long time ago now but I remember being astonished!) but something like (on current figures) £5k for every A at A level towards his university expenses, £2k for a B and nothing for any grade below a C. He pulled his finger out and got 4 As which amused us all in the office. But as she said, it worked - he was on course for all Cs/Ds at that point - and whilst I remember being shocked at the time, she said it wasn’t that different as to the total amount of money she might have been giving him anyway towards uni.... Would something like that work (& not bankrupt you!!).

OP, she sounds as if she’s got absolutely no idea what she wants to do and is probably shit scared of her A level exams looming.

You are right to be worried about sending her off to uni to do something she’s not even interested in. I would very much suggest that you get her to focus more on the here and now and how she can get the best possible outcome from school. I would very much consider suggesting a gap year with some actual aim to do some travel and work and get some kind of idea of what she wants. There are good opportunities for all sorts of industries without a degree.

The twin aspect is a red herring. Your dc are individual people. One wants uni and needs your support. The other is a bit stuck and needs help to find her way. 17 is extremely young to be making decisions that affect your whole life especially for those without a clear interest or ambition.

If you have an clear idea of what you want to do it is a lot easier to get started on the process. At this stage not everyone can identify that and it is quite scary as it feels like decisions now will determine everything for the future and I think some kids freeze at the prospect.
What is the school like at providing guidance and information, is their any access to career advice? Get her to start with what she is good at and interested in. If she can’t decide a course at uni maybe she should take a year out and work/travel and then apply. She may also be more suited to an apprenticeship.

I think there is more chance of young adults making good choices if they are given the responsibility to do so, that is not the same as not helping but it is giving them the space to work out for themselves what they want. If they think parents are still driving the process where is the impetus to even think fully about what they want and where they are going. Both my sons said that it was better to go to uni on visits without a parent because then the lecturers spoke to them as individuals, not their parents and it was easier to make decisions.

there

So she doesn't want to fo to uni (except for the parties) so she doesn't go to uni. Not the end of the world, what'll she do instead? Ask her that. Maybe she actually has a plan....

If she doesn't, if all your family have assumed uni uni uni all the way, maybe it'll help her focus if you remind her that there are alternatives and that just because they're twins doesn't mean they have to do the same things.

Apprenticeship might suit her much better. What's she interested in. I have told my very academic dd that if she were to train as a hairdresser she'd probably earn a lot more than as an historian.

Yeah i wouldn't fancy paying thousands for Uni fees if all she's going to do is go on the piss tbh

I've got a 17yo. This stood out to me:

Two DDs (17), year 12. One works hard, is motivated, has a clear(ish) view of what she'd like to do as a job - I'm helping her research unis and we're finding out about open days etc.

My dd works hard. She doesn't know what she wants to do beyond uni, nor do most of her friends, who generally are a hard working motivated bunch. In fact she was telling me that one of her friends (who is very well motivated etc) is getting stressed at trying to choose what she wants to do at uni.
She has researched her own universities. Found out about the open days, visited a couple off her own bat and on her own. She's not especially independent. In fact she's rather the opposite.

But it's good she's researched herself. Because her choices aren't necessarily mine. In fact there's a couple I would disagree with from my point of view. So when she's talked about it, I've asked why and she has very good reasons. She's talked about going to open days and although she can be almost cripplingly shy at times, she is prepared to go on her own, with her questions written down and ask them. I'm very proud of her.

It sounds to me that you're spoonfeeding one, which isn't good, and abandoning the other because she doesn't fit into your ideal.

I don’t think that young people often realise just how much more difficult the transition to A levels from GCSE is. Perhaps she is now realising that much more work is required and maybe feels she can’t do it, so opting out feels easier.

I also agree that too many people go to university and devalue both the experience and the qualification. Apprenticeships tend to be viewed as second rate, but actually, for many, they are a much better option. It would be interesting to know the percentage of students at university who either drop out or whose eventual job bears no relation to the course they took.

I really can feel your frustration and i think worry too. I can also see your pov about Uni. Trouble is you want your DD to listen to you and work through her options and so on, but she isn't engaging and there is nothing worse than that, as you just feel your banging your head against a wall. Maybe just down load a few things about apprenticeships and leave them with her to have a look out? sounds a bit lame, but maybe she will have to ' work through it herself' - i havent read the whole thread, but what is she currently studying? Is she liable to pass these exams? My ds1 was the same, loved the social side of school and college, but not much else and didnt go to Uni. he is working now, but i think he regrets the lost years. As a parent, there is only so much we can do - its so hard. I wish you luck - maybe when her sister goes off to uni it might make her think her options a bit more then?

She doesn't have to go to uni, and if she does, she'd be much better off waiting until she's made that choice herself. OP, I would start suggesting other options to her - apprenticeships, vocational courses, jobs she could get straight out of school. One thing I would make clear to her is that she will not be subsidised by you to stay at home and do nothing.

You sound rather nasty :/ she is still pretty much a kid At 17 .... Jesus get a grip

She doesn’t sound nasty, just worried and trying to do the right thing. Which is why she’s asking on mn. Don’t be so nasty yourself

Perfectly put tiggy