Researching/viewing universities with one twin, refusing to do the same with the other?

[BigSandyBalls2015]

Two DDs (17), year 12. One works hard, is motivated, has a clear(ish) view of what she'd like to do as a job - I'm helping her research unis and we're finding out about open days etc.

I've just told my other DD that I won't be doing that for her - she's still in bed! It's gone 2pm in the afternoon and I'm feeling ragey. She had one lesson today which she should have gone in for this morning but she said it wasn't worthwhile, she'd benefit more from being at home and studying ...... well that hasn't happened, as I knew it wouldn't. She's in bed glued to laptop and phone .... youtube shit, not studying.

She's now got the hump that I've told her to forget about uni, absolutely no point in wasting our weekends/taking time off work to look at them when she's so damn lazy and unmotivated. If she did manage to scrape a levels and get on a course what is the point of her ending up with a huge debt if she'd spend most of it in bed, missing lectures, or out on the piss. She's already said that uni appeals for the party side of it. No way am I funding it, or part funding it, as I understand most parents have to top up loans etc.

And breathe.

I'd turn the internet off but I'm working from home .

You and your husband (if he's around) need to sit down with your daughter and have a good talk about her options for the future. Make it clear that you think she is as clever as her sister, but she needs to be involved in whatever she chooses to do. That you will be happy to support her, but she needs to make an effort.

Then ask her what she is interested in, what she would like to do. If she says she doesn't know, tell her that she can take time off while she makes up her mind, but she will have to find a way to make an income meanwhile. And that if she chooses to go to university, you expect her to work at it - otherwise, she's on her own.

Actually I would do the opposite and do my best to find someth8ng that is going to really excite her, something that she will think is worth making some effort for.
And it might be doing some apprentship, going to a university she didn’t know about or learning about the cool things she will be able to do once there.
But if she hates being at school and can onoynsee Uni as more of the same for another 3 years, it’s not going to motivate her.

I'd be inclined to say that it has to be led by her. I wouldn't withdraw the offer of help bu that it has to be done together. That way you'll know how motivated she is and she can only resent her own choices.
Does their Dad have any sway with her?

Why are parents researching universities and going on trips to visit them with 17 year old children anyway?

In my day, we just got on with it ourselves. We had the brains and energy to organise it, travel, visit, go through all the prospectuses, do everything without Mummy and Daddy treating us like we were 5 year olds.

Do both your twins a favour: let them get on with it.

SpiritedLondon

When did parents start driving all of this so much? I sorted out my own uni and went and found my own accommodation without requiring anyone else to hold my hand.

Agreed. The answer is when it started snowing like it does nowadays...

Disclaimer - my dd is much younger, but I do work in a university. My personal view is that parents should not push their dcs towards university at all. I think it's much better if a young person tries out other things first, and then if they decide they want to go for a degree later, they haven't wasted the limited allocation of student funding. Unless she's actually interested in a subject for its own sake or because she needs it to get a career she wants, it's a waste of an opportunity.

OP, I was very much the same at 17. Stayed at my school for sixth form and absolutely hated it - thought I knew it all and wanted to go out and work. My attendance was 17% in year 12 and I dropped out after failing my AS Levels.

My parents just let me get on with it, I went and worked full time in a call centre while my peers went to uni. I eventually realised that working in a call centre wasn't what I wanted out of life and worked hard to get into uni, I eventually got a First in my degree, now have a masters in Nursing, work full time as a nurse, and I'm starting my PhD soon.

My point is, if I'd scrapped through my A Levels and gone to uni at 18 I would not have appreciated and would have gone just to get drunk and party ...and probably would have done very badly! I needed to grow up and take some responsibility for myself, and going out to work for a few years made me do that. My parent's couldn't have told me anything at that age as I thought I knew it all, they just let me figure it out myself. X

Can you use uni as a carrot to dangle?

Tell her you will help her find a uni and course and help pay for it if she applies herself from now on?

Make it very clear that these are the conditions (essentially for both children, it's just that one already does it) and therefore if she fails to meet them she's getting no help?

I was exactly the same as your daughter OP, I was capable of doing very well in my A-Levels, but I just couldn't be bothered. I went to uni open days as it meant I could take a day off school.

I got into Uni with my awful grades and ended up with a 2:1 in a scientific subject. Sixth form isn't for everyone, it wasn't for me.

You have my sympathy OP - been there, except my two were an academic year apart. Elder of the two, very bright, highly motivated and extremely successful . Three degrees and great career ahead. Younger one, just as bright but hated school. [Struggled a bit socially due to shyness and bullying and also had serious underlying health problems.].Often stayed at home when she should have been at school and pretty much taught herself in her final year of A levels. Hence, results not as good as they might have been but good enough since she did her very best under the circumstances. Came to us and said she didn't know what to do but didn't want to go to university. We advised her to get a job, any job - to get some life skills and increase her confidence. Reassured her that eventually she would work out what she wanted to do with herself. She got an apprenticeship doing something she was passionate about and three years later went off to university quite happily to study for a degree in this field by her own choice. [Can't say, as very specialist and would be outing]. Anyway, fast forward another three years and she graduated with a 1st last summer and now has a great job and brilliant career ahead.
I guess what I'm saying OP is that both DD's deserve your support and input - please don't give up on your reluctant twin - she sounds as though she's lost her way a bit and is fed up with trying to compete with your other DD's perfection. It does sound as though you are trying with her but it is not going to help if she is seeing you being so proactive with her sister and rubbing her nose in it.
Try to treat her as an individual with different needs and then attempt to meet those needs at the same time accepting that she is not the same as your other DD but that doesn't make her needs any less valid. Have you tried taking her out for lunch - on her own, for a proper discussion about her future? I would be making an appointment with her to do this asap!

Sometimes you have to let children fail themselves, then be there to pick up the pieces. In this case, let her get to the end of school and realise that maybe she did want to go to Uni after all.

We did this with my DSS; he worked in a supermarket for 2 years, then realised Uni was for him after all; he's now an architect's technician (no I'm not sure either!). The thing is, he's happier having done it his way than the route we might have pressured him into. He made an active choice when he was ready.

We did not go on university visits with either of our sons. I expected my parents to let me visit on my own and make my mind up many years ago and I didn't think for one minute it was necessary for us to be involved in our own (very sensible) son's choices. Both made very sensible choices and now have graduated and have good jobs. I did think that for DS2 there were possibilities other than university as there are several routes into the creative work he has chosen, but I would do no more than highlight their existence. Each of your daughters should be making their own choices.

I think it's lovely of you to help your DD with her university choices, especially now as it's £9000 a year and getting it wrong has massive ramifications. I would have loved some input from my mum.

I don't think you're being unfair. The offer of help is there if she decides to get out of bed and you're not treating them any differently.

I think they can feel a bit like they're on a hamster wheel at this age - decide a levels and sixth form versus college whilst studying hard for GCSEs, start A levels and you have to decide what you're doing after them before you've really settled in to sixth form and your subjects, which means knowing roughly what career you want. It's a lot if you don't really know what career you want and can be overwhelming.
She might be struggling with all this, and scared of the future, so avoiding it.

To those asking why parents are taking to open days etc, my dd did the research and applications but we wanted to see the universities ourselves, not to make any decisions, that was down to her, but because we are still part of her life and interested in it.

Draylon
I disagree with Flowerpot1234... But then your whole post as nothing to do with what I wrote. What do you disagree with exactly?

What is she good at OP?

If she's non-academic, there's no point her going to uni, at least not now. However, non-academic is not a status that is set in stone. One of the most brilliant professors I know left school at 16, and only returned to education as a mature student.

If there is one subject she likes, but she hates everything else, she could still do very well indeed at uni. But she would need to do a bit of rapid growing up by the sounds of things.

What about a gap year?

I think you need to step back a lottle for both of your dds. It sounds like they are both intelligent, young women amd you treat them bothbas mich younger.

I get that you are angry at your dd but why? She's still in bed at 2pm, she didn't think it was important to go to this mornings lesson. She will soon learn the consequences of her actions - or it will turn out that her cheeky day in bed was no biggie in the grand scheme of things.

What does she want to do after school. I would not push her into either direction - simply make it very clear what support you will offer and what level of commitment and results you ecpect in return.
Put the ball in her court.

Was similar to your daughter only 4 years ago - hated school, hated lessons and would rather study at my own rate at home in the evenings. I skipped 118 days of high school in my 4th year. However I took the initiative to spend my birthday and Christmas money on bus tickets to go to university open days myself, attended after school study support where I wasn't surrounded by kids who made me miserable, paid for my own UCAS application and applied and was accepted a year before the rest of my peers even beginning to think about university - all because I hated high school and I hated the thought of another year in high school so much. I have a student loan and work night shifts in a local warehouse to support myself (now in my third year of honours degree). My eldest brother is 2 years older than me and despite my mum forcing him along to university open days and careers events and encouraging him to do extra curriculars, he still lives at home at age 22 doing the same kitchen assistant job at spoons that my mum originally forced him to get for ucas at age 17. She still has a small university fund set up for when he decides he wants it - I've never even touched mine. Kids are either motivated or they aren't - I was going to go to uni with or without my mums support and she knew that, my big brother was the one that she pushed without much success. What you do won't make a difference at this point - my mum made my brother go to college for a HND after high school (she even filled in the application form herself) and he managed to get in barely only to waste the opportunity by not attending classes, refusing to do assignments because he found them "stupid and pointless". It took a year and a half for the college to say "we've had enough, no more second chances."

reading your OP again, first dd knows what area she wants to work in so do a degree in, that makes it so so much easier. Second dd doesn't seem to know so it is very confusing and difficult to know what to do after A levels. Cut her some slack.
Agree with firstever support her but be clear you expect effort from her too.
Good luck!

Draylon
I would have thought it was obvious why I disagree with you
Ah, you see, you thought wrong. That's why I asked, see?

because Back in my day you only got into sixth form to do A levels if you were clever enough and motivated enough to get in, which set you up for uni entry.
Yep, I still don't get the link between what you wrote above which is about those who got into university and those who didn't, and my comment which is all about parents accompanying 17 year olds to open days and doing all the research with them instead of letting them get on with it.

My post is all about too much parental involvement in university research. Your post is all about A levels and being clever enough for university, how there are too many people going to university nowadays (I agree with you on that, btw). We're talking about different things.

Anyway, I'll respond to your other points:

No responsible parent would allow a DC to blunder into a £50,000 mistake would they?
Let them make their £50k blunder. I'd personally urge most teenagers not to go to university actually and not waste their time. Most degrees today are a waste of time and I as an employer ignore anything unless it's from a classic university, or the occasional specialised super-degree from an ex-poly. Anything else - blah, bottom of the pile. Traipsing your 17 year olds round universities researched by Mummy and Daddy is just ridiculous.

I can assure you there were absolutely no unaccompanied 17 year olds looking round any unis I visited with my DS!
This doesn't make it right, you know. Then you simply had a load of snowflake generators, and it's absolutely ridiculous. 17 year olds should be doing this themselves. Parents should just be discussing options and having wise discussions with them, not researching prospectuses and visiting universities with them.