To think Corbyn's maths is wrong again

[Rebeccaslicker]

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/28/jeremy-corbyn-announces-labour-will-buy-every-homeless-person/amp/

How is this going to work? Does he mean "give" as in legally transfer or does he mean no rent? How does he think the houses are going to be maintained and utility bills paid? Is it fair on people who've been on waiting lists? Is it really going to reduce the numbers of homeless people if it becomes seen as a quick way to skip the queue?

I got back to my car in an NCP the other night, to find 5 homeless people right next to it with foil and needles. They were also going through some wallets (which may well have been their own; I didn't stop to check of course). The state of them was very sad and although I did feel intimidated at first, I also didn't report them because I thought, where else would they go - it's chucking it down. But then again, no way would they be able to look after a house. They were like zombies.

He's absolutely right to want to do something about the homeless situation. There should be more lots more help. But I don't think this is the answer. AIBU?

Interesting article on who pays what...

fullfact.org/economy/what-do-wealthiest-pay-tax/

To be clear again - we are a higher rate tax household, and I am arguing for an increase in higher rate tax (and above). So I am not exempting myself from the changes required. I am saying that I don't mind paying more for a decent NHS and a good education system. Others on the thread in similar positions have said that they agree.

So I can't see how it's possible to maintain that no-one in a higher rate tax bracket would want this, or that we are in some way voting for others to pay more tax and exempting ourselves. Both are demonstrably not true. Accusing us of a "politics of envy" is just an intellectually lazy way of trying to discredit a moral and psychological position you find personally uncomfortable.

You’re using the david beckham argument () to deflect from that fact that relative to 99% of people in this country, you earn a lot more!! And are in a much better position. And probably indirectly as a result of very low wages being depressed by the wonderful private sector.

We live in a society where it makes sense for everyone to have a basic decent standard of living.

You’ve not offered any solutions at all. At least corbyn tries!

So... you're saying that because you don't earn enough personally to effect mass change, you get to choose arbitrarily what % you can afford and where it should go. Meanwhile other people must be just ghastly individuals if they aren't clamouring to pay more - even though YOU are only paying what YOU think you can afford comfortably?

Sounds legit.

Right, I really have to go and do some writing. I'm not huffing off, I am just out of time to contribute any further to this thread because I have a deadline that is looming!

Talk us through your solutions OP

Rebeccaslicker

So... you're saying that because you don't earn enough personally to effect mass change, you get to choose arbitrarily what % you can afford and where it should go. Meanwhile other people must be just ghastly individuals if they aren't clamouring to pay more - even though YOU are only paying what YOU think you can afford comfortably?

Sounds legit.

Yep - funny how all the nuanced views and special pleading come out when it's the Corbynistas' own personal income and privileges that are in question...

I'm actually not in that income bracket myself, believeit. It was purely an example based on a previous post.

You're simply missing the point. Where do I say that someone in that bracket isn't in a much better position than most?? In fact I said specifically that anyone who denied that would be stupid or stealth boasting.

What I am saying is, most working people aren't doing it because they are philanthropists. They don't get the qualifications and work the hours it takes to get into that bracket because they don't want a nice lifestyle. So there will come a point when it's not worth it for them. Now that point will be different for every person/family. Some would happily pay more; others would baulk at a bit more. But Corbyn's proposals would take it past the line for a lot of people, in my opinion.

I'm also saying there is a clear distinction between the working middle class and the super rich. It's daft to pretend there isn't. Someone who already pays 62% on the top whack of their income is simply not in the same league as someone like Lewis Hamilton dodging the tax on his plane, or Tony Blair not paying tax on his property portfolio, or the unions not paying anything.

Why does he op need to talk over the solutions

It’s complex

That’s what MP’s and those who work in government are paid to do and should do not just make ridiculous promises

I don’t think Corbyn bothers with something as complex as numbers and maths he would need to put in too much effort

For a tiny start, believeit, I'd change your narrative. People like you are so aggressive and guilt tripping. You need to change people's attitude to society and others, not just dictate to them, if you want them to embrace making bigger cash contributions. Give that a try, eh?

Lets be honest......... He's not very smart is he? In a way I quite like JC, but could not vote for him due to his lack of intelligence. Does he really believe anyone falls for his gesture politics?

£120k puts you on the top 1%. And I don’t mean you personally.

So why not pay a little bit more? 1p on the tax rate would raise a lot more but wouldn’t have the dramatic impact that you claim.

If, by pointing out that we do not live in a bubble and cannot ignore problems like homelessness, that’s making people feel guilty then good. I’m glad. Because try as you like, you can’t pretend that homelessness is all about drug takers on the street. It isn’t. We have a real problem where children are living in b&bs and we pretend it isn’t a problem because it’s too difficult to think about.

Those children could be the parents of cleaners or others in the invisible economy, which the rich don’t see. And therefore aren’t their problem

So I would suggest that you open your eyes and make the links between the haves and have nots.

£120k puts you on the top 1%. And I don’t mean you personally.

So why not pay a little bit more? 1p on the tax rate would raise a lot more but wouldn’t have the dramatic impact that you claim.

If that was all good old Commie Corbyn was planning, then no one would care. But his plans will whack a hell of a lot more than a 1% tax rise on anyone he considers to be the "evil rich".

Argh, it's like you haven't read the posts at all.

You really believe Corbyn could do all he promises for that? Of course he couldn't. That's the problem with him and McDonnell. It'd be rise after rise. And when the high earners left, he'd look to the tier below, and start increasing their taxes too. Why do you think I keep asking where would people draw the line, or saying that it would be different for every person/family?

If you want the haves to pay more for the havenots, you have to make that more appealing for them. appeal to people's morals, rather than being hugely patronising and telling them to "open their eyes". (Esp people who do pro bono work for a lot of "have nots"!) You also have to convince them that the money will be spent responsibly and effectively if you want to make people happy about taking home a slimmer pay packet every month for the same amount of work.

Corbyn isn’t a communist despite what the daily mail would have you believe. That’s just the media’s way of scaring voters.

I threw out 1p as an indicator. I get the point about rise after rise, but that’s your assumption that it would snowball.

At least he is making suggestions - instead we get the Tory mess of tweaks and bungs which just make maters absolutely worse.

My actual view is that we need more political will to make this happen. Politicians need to take on house builders or, better yet, let councils build houses themselves. You wouldn’t need a tax rise to do it - councils can borrow and more than pay back the borrowing using rents. It’s what social housing associations manage quite easily and make surpluses.

But as a principle, I have no problem asking the rich to pay a little bit more. Because they haven’t been for years!

Also you still haven’t addressed the point that those at the lower end pay a lot more in tax as a proportion to those at the other end.

guilt

If you have these feelings, perhaps look inward.

If they say 'we will put up taxes a lot' then they are toast.
at least the lib dems are truthful ' a penny more on tax for the NHS' that was clear enough.
All you get from Corbyn and co will be fudge answers and Diane and her calculations. I am dreading the next election if those two are still around as we know what happened last time ( despite the gains from some quarters) i cant see them learning from any of that. i hate typing any of this as greed and the Tories isnt 'good' either, but its what people will perceive as best for them.

Also you still haven’t addressed the point that those at the lower end pay a lot more in tax as a proportion to those at the other end

Indeed.

But as a principle, I have no problem asking the rich to pay a little bit more. Because they haven’t been for years!

All that shows is your own ignorance - capital gains tax and stamp duty have been hiked up enormously by the Conservative Government, including surcharges that hit offshore purchasers and second home / BTL purchasers hard.

It's not an assumption. It's reality, based on his constant chucking out of idealistic fantasies that need a blank chequebook. I don't think anyone is denying that some of his ideas are very nice - it's just that it's 2018 and they won't work!

I don't think the tories work either, but they are doing more than Blair or brown ever did in terms of raising things like sdlt for second homes and trying to close tax loops. It's just not that straightforward sadly - otherwise every government would do it.

I would definitely start with trying to change attitudes. And teaching more about politics at school too. Trying to get more of a social conscience. Things like the Nevilles and the building in Manchester that they let homeless people use for a period - let's celebrate that and use it to tell some stories that might loosen purse strings.

I don't see how the proportions paid are relevant to the sums collected, which is what translates into public services at the end of the day. If a high earner is paying a lower % proportionately, but that translates into a great deal more cold hard cash, that's what's going to be missed if they go.

It's also what people will notice in terms of what they deem acceptable for their financial and working situation. £800 a week disposable - great. £790 - great. £700 - sure. £600 - ow, I feel it now. £500 - argh now I'm struggling a bit with things like car loans and child care, so maybe I change my job so i earn a lot less but I can do the child care myself. So the nanny/nursery also earns less... THAT's the sort of decision I'm trying to illustrate. Some people will kick off at £799 a week. Others would be happy with much greater reductions. But when you're only talking about 300,000 people or so in that sort of bracket, the maths is v finely balanced to go tits up!

Also you still haven’t addressed the point that those at the lower end pay a lot more in tax as a proportion to those at the other end.

Maybe because that's absolute rubbish?

Someone earning £20,000 pays £3118 per year, which is 15.6% of gross earnings: listentotaxman.com/20000?

Someone earning £100,000 pays £34219 per year, which is 34.2% of gross earnings: listentotaxman.com/100000?

Lefties aren't very good at numbers, are they?

He's an absolute idiot and its so dangerous that he heads an organisation. Because hes not in power he basically says whatver he wants - without any conseqence whatsoever. I dont blame him for saying crap, because he cannot possibly look anymore of an idiot that he already does. He will backtrack as per. This is what he does - just be grateful he is not PM.

@PinkertonSmythe

Have you heard of VAT, excise duties etc etc?

I don't think he wants to be PM personally. He never sounds that bothered about anything much when pressed on the cold hard facts.
He just likes being in opposition. Thats how it comes across to me.