To think the school has a point about packed lunches

[Rebeccaslicker]

I'm not sure about banning parents from the premises, but is it a bad thing to say no chocolate, sugary drinks etc in a primary school lunch?? (My DD is only 2, so I haven't had the lunchbox decisions yet, v interested in people's views!)

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/now-mum-48-banned-school-1108690.amp

Because pandering to people like that only reinforces their behaviour and encourages them to behave in that way.

But they continue to behave that way, and the children continue to suffer from a poor diet.

Why not consider alternative ways of getting parents involved in better choices for their children, when it is clear that a school's approach is only generating stubborn opposition?

The definition of insanity is repeating the same fruitless action and expecting a different result.

You can't start out with the basic attitude that parents are The Enemy and hope to make a dent in the lifestyle choices they make for their children. People can sense that attitude, and it only reinforces the oppositional dynamic.

Nobody likes to be patronised either.

You have to meet parents where they are, not where you would like them to be.

www.edutopia.org/blog/high-poverty-schools-engage-families-community-william-parrett-kathleen-budge
This is from the US and concerns issues related to academic progress, but there are some points that could be translated to British practice, especially since some of the more sustained resistance to school lunch policy seems to come from places where academic performance is an issue too.
"Without a trusting environment in our classroom and with the families of my kids, it's all uphill. We never make the progress we could. . . we never can 'click.' Trust is what makes it all happen for us." The development of trusting relationships lies at the heart of successfully engaging parents, families, and the community.

There seems to be a lot of disconnect between schools and the communities they serve, and I suspect the lunchbox run-ins are only a symptom of deeper issues. The site I linked focuses on creating a more holistic, intertwined school community, with the wider community involved too.

Schools really cannot continue to ignore the way ongoing generational poverty affects engagement with school and with the aims of school. (I am not saying everyone who is poor makes X or Y counter productive choice, but suggesting that for many, poverty and associated factors complicates everything).

You can't start out with the basic attitude that parents are The Enemy and hope to make a dent in the lifestyle choices they make for their children
I'm not saying parents are the enemy.

I am saying that there are a group of parents who are rude, obnoxious, think rules don't apply to them and their DC, undermine the school at any opportunity, try to intimidate and bully school staff. They are usually the ones doing sad faces in the local press too.

I agree there needs to be ways to engage with those parents and help them improve chances for their kids.
... However it is not the job of a school to do that.

As schools we are there to educate the children and when budgets are already tight the money should be spent on educating children. Schools already are using education budgets plugging the gaps of camhs cuts. We already have an ever expanding PSHE curriculum to account for the fact that some parnets are shit and the response to any issue in the news is 'get it taught in schools'.

Ultimately, if school have a lunch policy then they have a lunch policy.

School releasing valuable staff to bargain, negotiate and plead with people who will argue vimto is water and it's against their child's human rights to confiscate monster energy drink is a waste of school resources.

I have to say... in all fairness to the school my DS eats VERY healthy there.

He has an apple and milk for snack.
Everyday he chooses to have a jacket potatoe and salad for dinner with a drink of water. Then he willl choose another piece of fruit for pudding.

All his own healthy choice I know....but he would eat like a sugar and Salt addict at home if I let him

Math There seems to be a lot of disconnect between schools and the communities they serve, and I suspect the lunchbox run-ins are only a symptom of deeper issues.

This resonates with me. Somehow school in the UK seems to have become the sole arbiter of child related issues. The school tells us how to dress and feed our children. In recent years the rules have got stricter and stricter leaving parents with few choices.

The problem with strict rules is that they fall hardest on the families who are for whatever reason just about managing but who slip up every now and then. Falling short of 'the rules' whether uniform or school lunch is treated as a discipline issue. The child is put in isolation/detention (uniform issue) or has the offending item taken off them (lunch box issue).

To treat these as discipline issues is unfair on the child. It can also cause a rift to form between the family and the school. Having more relaxed rules and treating the lapses with greater empathy and consideration to child and family would go a long way to avoiding the rifts.

The real problem is where the family is not managing at all. The children whose home lives maybe chaotic, not always going home to the parental home but to other relatives or neighbours.

The child who routinely comes in with wholly inappropriate clothes or food should be viewed not as a discipline issue but as a potential child welfare issue. Taking food off the child, putting them in isolation achieves nothing. Notes/calls home dont work as they wont reach the right people.

GnomeDePlume
For some they come in unprepared etc because of poverty but in my experience more often than not it is because parents choose to ignore rules.

The child who routinely comes in with wholly inappropriate clothes or food should be viewed not as a discipline issue but as a potential child welfare issue
It's a child welfare issue if they aren't clothed properly, not washed. I totally agree.
It's not a child welfare issue if mam decides that the uniform says black leather school shoes and she choses to buy a pair of £70 black trainers and then complain when her child is sanctioned.
That's just clear defiance and a sign that the parent will do fuck all to support their child at school (see also why the child hasn't done homework/ won't attend a detention / can't be put in isolation because 'i told them you batter them if they start on you'). It's not poverty. It's parents deciding rules don't apply to them or their children.

Sane for lunches. Child doesn't have a full pack lunch and is hungry = child welfare issue.
Child had a lunchbox full of crap, harribo, mars bars, fizzy pop etc = not a child welfare issue. It's a home think no rules apply to them issue.

Most schools I have worked in have spent school funds dealing with child welfare issues. Paying for food/uniform etc.

They don't take well to parents like in that article who flout the rules and then bully and intimidate staff over their child's right to have vimto.

MaisyPops but that is why school uniform rules dont need to be as strict as many schools have them. Why does it actually matter to the school that a student is in black trainers rather than black leather shoes?

Is it that important that a child sometimes has a chocolate biscuit in their lunchbox rather than a piece of fruit?

By making rules very strict then sanctioning the child for things which are out of their control all you are doing is setting yourself up for a rift with child and family.

For a minute i thought you meant they tell the child to batter the teachers if they put them in isolation!

Gnome - because appearances matter. The kids are representing the school. Just as one day they'll have to dress appropriately for jobs and interviews.

Plus if you allow kids to wear what they like, you get the inevitable scrapping and jealous and possibly even theft when one kid has designer trainers and another has primark own brand.

No, children and young people find ways round uniform to demarcate status! DD' s school insisted on brand, monogrammed uniform available from one shop. So, a boy might come in with an Armani belt; or one whose father played for England, had new Nike trainers from his sponsor for PE every week.....Then there is who has a top of the range laptop, smartphone, foreign holiday every school holiday...

Rebeccaslicker before we moved back to the UK we lived in a non-uniform country and didnt see the problem with clothing theft you are describing. The school my DCs went to abroad was far more community oriented than the school they found themselves in when we moved back.

Creating strict rules on what should be essentially parental choice (food and clothes) just sets the school up to antagonise the family.

The child coming into primary school with only sweets and biscuits in their lunch box is a child welfare issue whether it is because parents are struggling or CBA to sort packed lunch and leave it to the child to pick up lunch from the corner shop. Saying no child can have a chocolate biscuit because one child has far bigger problems at home is overkill and creating its own problem.

Sanctioning the child for not having fruit at home for a packed lunch or not having the 'right' uniform shoes makes it far more likely that the child will be kept off school for spurious sickness reasons.

Surely it is better for the child to be in school in the wrong shoes eating biscuits than to be missing a day's schooling?

because appearances matter. The kids are representing the school.

No. The kids are representing themselves and their families. When my child goes into a school he doesn't suddenly stop belonginging to his family and become a 'representative' of the school. What if he doesn't agree with the school? What is he doesn't believe in anything they stand for. A child attends school for an education. He does not belong to the school.

Just as one day they'll have to dress appropriately for jobs and interviews.

So teach him to dress appropriately.
It is not appropriate for a 5 year old to wear a tie and white shirt for painting. (Or at anytime!)
It is not appropriate to wear a jumper and winter coat in 25 degree heat.
It is not appropriate to have to remove warm clothing in freezing temperatures.
Etc, etc.

Different jobs and careers have different clothing requirements. Schools are not teaching this.

My children are failing to learn what clothes are appropriate to wear at what points because they have to wear minutely specified formal clothes all the time.
I feel I am fighting school indoctrination on this issue all the time.

Ahh, another parent who knows best about everything.

Meh, you can't argue with sheer arrogance

Do you really think all parents are capable of teaching their children to dress appropriately? It's so obvious some aren't.

Do you really believe your child isn't a representative of the school? What about taking pride in being part of a community? Does only your family count? How very narrow.

Basically politics of the individual are seeping into everything.

If you want to buck society, may I suggest that you homeschool in the forest?

It's not always possible to work with schools on issues like this. Ours for instance claims they want to work with you but shut you down if you try. Uniform has been an issue, especially regarding girls school shoes. Whilst trying to talk to them explaining that we realised it wasn't the schools fault the latest trend is flimsy barely foot covering shoes, those shoes aren't appropriate for the middle of winter, especially if your kids walk to and from school. It basically took a lot of parents to say 'fine, just put them in their plimsolls all day' to loosen the policy to include boots. They still have to be black and plain, but that was never the issue for those of us trying to get the issue addressed.

Dobby I'm co fused, are you actually saying that you couldn't get closed in lace up shoes anywhere?

Lace up shoes are also not appropriate when kids can't tie shoe laces. The school requested them not to have lace ups if they can't do it themselves. Which many can't in reception.

Do you really think all parents are capable of teaching their children to dress appropriately? It's so obvious some aren't.

So let's punish the many for the few. Again. Rather than helping the few.

Do you really believe your child isn't a representative of the school?

I don't think a school is a place that needs representing. Turn up, learn stuff, get qualified, go home.
I think that is more important than having to wear certain clothes. Especially if the lack of those exact clothes means you don't get educated. (Sent home, excluded, internal suspension etc.)

What about taking pride in being part of a community?

My children are very much part of a community. The school however is a very small part of that community, which also includes adults of all ages, children from other schools, home ed children, babies and preschoolers.

'pride' is a word I have a problem with. What has my school done to make me 'proud' of it?

Ok, so we're talking very young children. It's not at all hard to get decent Velcro/buckle shoes for girls this age, that most definitely are goof covering. I say this as someone who agrees that Clark's girls range are shit and impractical on the whole

put tbf we found plenty, but none completely plain, only black or without lights. The one time we did find a good pair in DDs case, none available in her size even online i swore a lot at my computer over that. Most girls in some way were contravening the rules as they were so restrictive. Ironically it was the parents trying to stick to the rules and work with the school who got the agro.

putyourdamnshoeson

Please tell us where you can get do it covering shoes for girls from. I'm also struggling.

Do it should be *foot

You really do sound like the very worst type of parent my friends and family who are teachers have to deal with, Isitthe. So sure you must know best.

Why does anyone bother having school rules or learning how to teach? I mean, if every parent knows best for every child, what's the point?

GnomeDePlume
I couldn't care less if there us a uniform or not (having taught in schools doung both).

The thing is the type of parent who thinks 'ah i'll get my lad trainers not shoes' is also the type of parent in a non-uniform school who would ignore the basic 'closed shoes' rule and send their daughter in wearing strappy sandals because 'what does it matter what she has on her feet. They're shoes'.

They are the same parents who will kick off if their child gets detention because 'eeh they were just...'

There are issues linked to social deprivation.

However, there is a reasonable sized minority of parents who seem to think they can pick abd mix rules, set their children up to break the rules and then act like it's part of some one parent quest for social justice. It isn't. They are just the types of people who think rules don't apply to them.

I don't believe in pandering and catering to the whims of idiots who think they and their offspring are above the rules.

You really do sound like the very worst type of parent my friends and family who are teachers have to deal with, Isitthe. So sure you must know best.

Obviously because you know me so well. I've chosen to use a school to educate my children. So I do my best to support that school and their (absolutely ridiculous) rules. Helping with PTA, hearing readers, offering my time for extra jobs like sorting lost property etc. Making sure my kids are wearing perfect uniform. Doing my absolute best to help my kids complete (pointless) homework.
Am I 'that' parent? Sometimes, probably. I try not to be.

However if we are talking theory on an internet site. Then yes I think most of our school system is a completely rubbish idea, and is failing most of our kids and our country.

I mean, if every parent knows best for every child, what's the point?

Because our society is set up on a way which makes it impossible for most parents to oversee their child's education, even though the law firmly puts that responsibility in parent's hands.

When teachers assume they are better educated than all their pupils parents,
When teachers assume they know pupils and their needs, better than their parents know them, that is when parent/school relationships and cooperation break down.