... in thinking some women just want other women to have a crappy experience of motherhood because they did?

[tomatosalt]

Two work colleagues in their late forties were discussing their experiences of childbirth with me in the lunchroom. This swiftly moved on to one of them admonishing ‘the next generation of mothers’ for accepting too much help from their own parents (the DGP’s) with their DC. I went from being surprised that someone would judge another woman in this way to being horrified when the other one joined in.

Cue both women recounting all the times they were sick/exhausted/recovering from childbirth and left alone with absolutely no help because family all lives too far away. So much judgement “You chose to have them, you raise them!” type stuff. One of the women who is already a grandparent was practically crowing about how she refuses to do any childcare for her DD and SIL, i.e. pick up sick granddaughter from daycare and look after her until one of them could get there from their jobs on the other side of town. The other woman openly stated that she feels ‘resentful’ when a mother tells her that she’s going away with her partner for the weekend, childfree, ‘because I never had that luxury’.

AIBU in thinking women like this are the exception, not the rule?! I’m not advocating that grandparents should be obliged to take on parental responsibilities but why would you not be willing to help out your own child occasionally just on the basis that no one helped you out so everyone else should just suck it up and suffer?

Yes, you just have strange work colleagues. Sorry. None of that is my experience.

Them both being unpleasant drama queens may have been one of the reasons no one wanted to help them.

Weirdos. I'm a resident DGF as many of you know, and I think it's great for everyone. On general principles, life is easier when people aren't selfish arseholes.

They sound jealous. As a single mum with no reliable support it can be very lonely and hard, especially when they are ill etc. However i would never think less of someone who does get help. I would also not think less of someone who doesnt want to help with grandchildren.

If i was you i would pity the fact they cant see beyond their own hardships not judge them for it. If you dont like what they are saying disagree out loud to them or dont engage.

It’s a toxic attitude but exists in lots of areas. Eg younger kids are bullied at school or on teams because older kids “had to go through it when they were younger” same with apprentices in some work areas etc.

Some people are just bitter! If I had a hard time raising my children I would want to make it easier for mine when they had their own!

Yep they sound jealous. I get less support from my mum then she did from hers but that is due to my Mum’s medical situation. She would love to help out but can’t.

I don't think this is a mother issue or just a personality type. My DM is very like this - she loves to paint herself as a martyr and how hard she worked. This unfortunately doesn't make her more helpful as she understands how hard it is, more that I have to lump it!

Sorry you work with such twats.

I am early 40s and this is not my view or experience whatsoever.

My family and in-laws have always been hours away so DH and I have been on our own (unless friends step in during emergencies etc). It is what it is. I do admit to slight jealousy when I see other families working and helping each other but it's more along the lines of wishing my own family lived nearby, not hoping other people suffer worse than me!

I hope I can be of use to my dc when they are older and have families, but by the same token, I'm not sure how keen I am to look after the dgc full time.

Your colleagues sound unpleasant.

I’m kind of with her on the refusing to pick up a sick grandchild from daycare. She’s working; I doubt her employers would be understanding if she was off sick after leaving work to pick up a sick child so her daughter/son could remain in their workplace.

You do have some strange work colleagues!

I don’t like it when anyone starts an intergenerational-virtue-competition anyway. Raising babies has probably been equally hard, just in different ways, for all generations since the world wars.

My mum had a lot of help from her mum (born in the fifties) had much nicer home for very little money. It was easy for them to get on the property ladder. She didn’t ‘have to’ work, but then, I don’t know how happy that made her and actually maybe the expectation that she give up work was worse back then. She had a lot of help from (female) friends and family, (which I don’t, as I live far away from all family), but my dad worked ridiculous hours and wasn’t expected to do much in the house, whereas my dh is much more involved with all the boring and not to boring household stuff. Swings and roundabouts.

At 40, to be honest, they're probably in the thick of parenting themselves: looking after teens and quite possibly with elderly care kicking in. So I'm not surprised their conversation isn't immediately all about how much they're looking forward to caring for grandchildren!

Seriously WOMEN STILL DO THE BULK OF CARING - AND IT'S NOT FAIR!!! And it is quite likely that this is a situation IMPOSSIBLE to sustain, given that women are also wage-earners. Society needs to do something.

On another level: You'll always get a fraction of people like this. And you see it sometimes on the responses to an OP on MN. A woman posting because she's struggling is going to get a few responses along the lines of: "Well, I had a tough time, suck it up."

The majority of responses, though, will be positive, sympathetic and supportive.

As on MN, so in life. In most RL cases, women will go out of their way to try and improve life for their children - and for other women, generally: thus are political movements born, with no hope of realisation in the present, but hope of long-term achievement of goals.

I'm guessing a lot of the men in your office were oblivious to the whole conversation, though?

Anyway, just be glad you're not the offspring.

And, you know what, there is also the fact that an awful lot of people are massively emotionally literate and/or emotionally articulate. Perhaps they're on a journey themselves. Stage 1: acknowledging how hard parenting-as-a-woman is (not an easy stage, there is a lot of propaganda and ideology that keeps women feeling along, guilty and silent about how hard it is). Stage 2: Expressing and being able to share that acknowledgement about how hard it is. Stage 3: feeling angry, rather than depressed and silent.

Stage 4, ideally, is about finding an action that draws on this experience and improves things. This takes time. It requires, apart from anything else, finding an appropriate object for the anger, and being able to formulate future goals and possible actions.

Obviously, they;re struggling a bit with Stage 4. At the moment, the anger is directed against women they perceive as having evaded the power imbalance of gendered parenting, and their action is to withhold labour that they experience (without fully articulating this) as having being unequally coerced from them.

I suspect that it might take acquaintance with an experience-based discourse - such as feminism - which has been developed elsewhere to turn their current Stage 4 into something more positive.

But it takes time to develop and/or find an alternative discourse. It's not an idea that is routinely put forward in media 'think-pieces' or in popular culture. So you have to search it out, and take time and effort searching it out. All of which can be in short supply if you are working in and out of the home, parenting, holding down a wage-paying job, etc.

My mum can be like that. Every time stabbings me, dh and I just take a note to remember not to repeat the behaviour with our own dc.

I would never think less of people accepting help. I do get annoyed when people don't realise the help they have and judge me for not being able to do as much as them or having to make different choices.

The not wanting to provide childcare for her own DGC is totally up to her though.

I think it's fine if she can't or doesn't want to help, but its a bit weird crowing about it. Just say "nope, can't help out with that, sorry" and forget about it, rather than telling everyone how "I showed them!".

I hope they’re the exception too.

Although my mother used to take blatant pleasure in crowing about how she had no intention of EVER helping with her grand children should she have any. She used to go on about it at some length. I think she thought it was clever, or amusing in some way. Some kind of coy feminist declaration of independence. Which I guess it could have been in other circumstances. But she just sounded selfish and rather stupid.

And sadly, now I do have a DS she has virtually no relationship with him as she certainly doesn’t see him as anything to do with her. She’ll sit there and stare at him if he says he’s hungry or thirsty, even if she’s the only adult in the room.

When my dad was alive DS and him had a wonderful relationship, not because my dad was some kind of child care slave but because he wanted to love and take care of his only grandchild, and understood that love grows through time spent together.

I hope people like my mother are very rare. The saying ‘cut off their nose to spite their face’ comes to mind. It’s very sad really.

I know someone like this. She seems to conveniently forget that she lived with her mum for about 14 years after having her dd1 (And 3 subsequent dc) and turns into a complete martyr whenever I mention my mum/dcs dad/dp having the dc for me.
It's weird!

Stabbings?? No idea where that came from. Should say every time it annoys me!

I don't think they are the exception to the rule. I do think it's unusual now to have grandparents on standby to help out and babysit for weekends to allow couples to get away by themselves.

I do think that it is toxic to be resentful of those who are helped in this way.

They sound quite young to be grandparents, late 40's?
Either way it is very odd to have support from grandparents. Especially if they are working?
Them not liking their family is their issue though. I think a lot of people of my parents age (60's) have convenient memories. My mum rarely sees me or my children because she is an abusive witch. Still likes to make out to her griends she doesn't get time with the grandkids because she put her foot down to helpme toughen up my parenting. Utter self serving bollocks. Maybe their kids avoid them.

I have friends who dont work and have always said they wouldnt lookafter grandchildren, and dont, I have had the situation of looking after grandchildren, my own, (one of whome was young) terminally ill parent, with an 80 mile round trip (am only child) and working full time. Now parent dead, kids grown up, look after grandkids school holidays, when they are ill, because single parent Mum has to go to work. They dont live really near, its an 80 mile round trip, DH says he hopes they will return the favour if we get old/ill in the future. My DD did come with me last year to see a consultant when I was told I hd a malignant growth on my back, so swings and roundabouts in our case.

I think this is a personality type. My mum had it very hard with no help at all. It makes her determined to help young woman when she can as she knows how hard it can be.

Although would point out that most GPs in their 40s would be working full time and pretty limited as to how much they can help. Employers do not usually give emergency leave for GPs to help out.

Yes - I've come across this.

Some people are bitter and want people to have things as hard as they did - not just parenting, but setting up a home, or work conditions and others try and make things easier so people don't have to go through things they did.

I always remember one colleague had been through very similar hard times to my mum (fleeing domestic violence with a young child) but their outlooks were so different. Colleague wouldn't help people in that situation and would say things like they don't deserve benefits, they just have to get on with it like I did- but my mum would say ' I had no help when it happened to me, so I'm determined no one else has to cope alone' and sends stuff to refuges/lobbies government etc.