to wonder if #metoo / #timesup etc will go too far?

[MrsDub]

Realise this is a can of worms but genuinely interested in where my perspective sits in the spectrum (career HR professional & several time veteran of blatant, rampant, tribunal-established sexism/racism in the workplace, to-date ultra sympathetic to the cause).

Starting to worry that the burgeoning (for want of a better phrase) mob mentality (black dresses, Oprah, revisionist criticism of e.g. "Friends") is going to silence voices from the moderate middle ground. I don't want a world where the roles reverse, so where does it stop, and who says so? Feels right now that there's huge momentum behind everyone's agreement that things need to change, but very little in the way of welcome, open debate about how best it might?

(If MN's bored already I'll write to my MP )

yes, you are unreasonable. "too far" is a ridiculous straw man deployed to prevent progress.

*ridiculous straw man
*
"Straw man"? Not sure you know what that phrase means.

OP......I agree. But virtually no one else will on MN.

I don’t know much about #timesup, I don’t live in the UK. But I found #metoo infuriating.

I suppose it could be good in possibly making people more aware of the prevalence of it and possibly encouraging more people to call it out when they see it.

incidentally, OP, what is the "moderate middle ground" regarding sexual assault? What's the "moderate" view on gender discrimination?

Posted too soon - but to me #metoo seemed incredibly passive and like a sort of cult of victim hood. I can’t really explain it. It also seemed to do a division on the basis of sex which I don’t think is warranted.

I don't want a world where the roles reverse, so where does it stop, and who says so?

In what way are the roles reversing? This makes no sense.

YABU.

What has gone too far, is the way in which men feel entitled to women's bodies and often face little to no consequence for their actions.

Yeah because what if nobody could ever sexually assault or abuse people, hold back their careers based on whether they'd shag them or not. That would be awful. Where's the fun in that?

I'd hate to live in world where powerful people couldn't get away with rape and would be called out on it every time. Imagine being respected and the only sexual encounters you had were consensual and enjoyable. Wouldn't that be too far?

Are you Catherine Deneuve?

I can't see how the roles could possibly reverse.... I read a book once, where this was sort of the case, the women were leaders of the celtic tribe, they held the wealth, a man's status depended on who was allowing him into their bed, the women occasionally laughed at the men.
It was a work of fiction, it will never happen.

I think actual change will take a long time. What is a moderate ground here though? Roles are not reversing; I’ve not groped anyone lately, or hired someone based on their likelihood of shagging me. I know I’m being trite here, but I don’t think it is going ‘too far’.

Actually, I think it’s just too superficial, and not really addressing structural inequalities and how attitudes persist. Wider society needs to pick this up and persist until behaviours towards women genuinely shift.

My MiL was moaning about this the other day, about how men will be thrown into prison for touching a woman's knee. I did point out to her that touching another person on the knee or patting their bottom is not an inalienable human right. Just dont do it.Its not hard!
What would be a sensible middle ground? there already is a 'sensible' option. It's called mutual consent. Man chats up woman in a bar. She chats back. Man and woman have a conversation. Man chats woman up in a bar. She shows no interest. Man walks away. Why should someone have a right to touch anyones legs, bottom or breasts?

I agree op.

Unless it is a historic rape I would like to recognise the world has changed, what happened then isn't acceptable now and those who continue to sexually harass women will be judged by today's standards. The standards have been set, lets embrace the positivity of that and work together as equals.
If inequality or sexism raises an issue now, let's face into it. i love the analogy an Mum poster used (applied to a different topic today) about grains of sand covering rocks- don't let smaller issues you can't change now cover the bigger issues that do need tackling.

What is the 'moderate middle ground'? Whose voices from that ground are being silenced?

Surely, firstly you have get the situation out into the open, which is happening and then and only then can conversations happen as to what is expected from that point on?

Who on earth is calling for the roles to be reversed? Are you seriously implying that woman want to be able to sexually assault or sexually harass men with impunity because they hold the balance of power?

I don't think it can go too far. The more people realise that it is socially unacceptable and against the rules to do this the better.
I also feel as though there needs to be something to counteract the portrayal of women in porn that young men view, perhaps these campaigns can ensure that although this is what they see in porn it is not reality.

I know I’m going to be crucified here for admitting this but years ago, I let a very important client of the company I worked for at the time stroke my knee.

I laughed it off as a joke and gently pushed his hand away.

Why did I do this?

Because he was a VIP as far as my confess concerned and I didn’t want to jeopardise my career.

Yes, I could have complained but the reality was that my company would have got rid of me before getting rid of the big client. His business was worth more than my potential lawsuit. And I knew it.

So, #metoo #time’sup is late in the day but not early enough

I think we're a long long way from going "too far" (whatever that means). We're still a pretty long way from this mythical "middle ground" you speak of.
I've heard all this before. Whenever women try to push back actually.

Apparently, whenever we ask for equality or respect, we are taking it "too far" and stomping all over men's rights.

Their rights to act like twats and treat us like chattels presumably.

Fuck off!

OP, other users have said it too, but please could you clarify what you mean by "middle ground" and "role reversal"?
I don't necessarily disagree with you - I wouldn't want a role reversal and meaningful discussion on how to change things is definitely not a bad idea - but I'm not sure I'm seeing the same signs you are.
I find most of what's happening rather toothless - a couple of the worst offenders have been taken out of the picture, but meanwhile things continue as normal just with a temporary celebrity spotlight on the issue which now runs the risk of turning into a media show for Brownie Points.
I'd rather that (somehow) the momentum can be kept going until real change is brought about.

Thanks all! To start with - I haven't said anyone should have a right to touch anyone's anything, male or female, nor that "it's" - the campaign for equality - gone too far (or that roles are reversing @restbiterepeat or implying they should @reddogs). Far from it. My worry was that it the cult of the hashtag movement has the capacity to become or be labelled as noise, unless we take the fervour and turn it into something meaningful.

@never clearly there's no moderate middle ground on assault or discrimination, if you read my background you'll probably understand that a challenge on that point is unwarranted.

@anymajordude i think you've tried to miss the point :/

Other posters - thanks, really interesting - definitely a different generational perspective on this, many of those who are still by and large making the laws (and leading the companies) have a long road to travel. @Royal I won't crucify you - I've been there, seen it a hundred times more and I'm sorry it happened to you.

I'm wondering where the checks and balances are on any kind of pointing out of our differences and individualities. Long ago I studied case law on male actors applying for female parts and an ensuing discrimination case. Clearly this is different to poking fun at or discriminating based on a person's choices and things they cannot help, be it gender, hair colour, sexual preference etc etc. But right now, most of what has happened feels showy (maybe just Hollywood?); there's a lot of big talk, impactful speeches about dreams of new dawns, and nobody has put their mind to global initiatives that will move things forward to a place of true equality, or shone a light on initiatives that are already trying to. Or they have and haven't got any oxygen. Have they?

I've seen tens of people discriminated against in the workplace, with a watertight case, who are simply too intimidated by the imbalance of power to take it further, and found it hideously sad/felt totally powerless. I suppose I'm frustrated by a ballroom of black dresses and #oprah2020, when her only qualification has been to articulate what most of us were thinking already with a fist pump and sonorous voice (not to go into the whole "did she know" thing), when those perpetrators probably still have a generation until they're actually taken to task.

No such thing as too far.

What pisses me off is that everyone is listening to the voices of prominent hollywood folks, but the people who are being ignored are the everyday folks, and marginalised folks who have lived this every bloody day since the beginning of time, and nobody gives a shit about. Or rather, celebs will amplify their voices NOW to further their agenda, but once they have achieved what they want, they will go back to ignoring and silencing.

If you want to know if someone genuinely gives a shit, ask them how they feel about sexworkers and trans people being sexually abused, and then ask them what they plan to do to support them whilst they're busily virtue signalling for the mainstream or celebrity population.

The silence is usually deafening.

@weird I think you probably said it better than I have.

I'm nervous to put a match to all this when I genuinely wanted to know what other people thought of the same issues, but to try to answer your question, by middle ground I mean equality, and by role reversal - I'm already seeing many of the men in my life, personally and professionally, start to question themselves when all I have known from them has been kindness, selflessness, care, charm (in the non-oily sense - making a cup of tea for a colleague, not groping them)... in case it's misconstrued (there are plenty of men whose paths I've crossed in the same capacities who do not exemplify all or any of these traits, but they're not in my life). To be clear, none of the people I'm referring to are gropers, objectifiers, "lads" - and they're all feeling ashamed. I suppose my worry is that they're too nervous to speak when actually part of what, in my view, is required is that they speak up, continue to lead by example and empower women, and other men, - I fear people like that throughout any community feeling that contributing will get their heads bitten off. Which unfortunately this thread hasn't done anything to abate. I was nervous to ask anonymously as a woman and a victim of discrimination, I can't imagine how it would feel for a man in a meeting room.

Starting to worry that the burgeoning (for want of a better phrase) mob mentality (black dresses, Oprah, revisionist criticism of e.g. "Friends") is going to silence voices from the moderate middle ground.

You lost me here, and if you can't understand why, you're part of the problem, no matter how many times you blather tosh about 'of course I am sympathetic to the REAL victims'. In a way I don't blame you, though, you're not the first woman to internalise all this crap. Feminism is still the only F word that offends and shocks these days.

BattleCuntGalactica, I do agree with you, but it has to start somewhere. The hope is that when famous people bring it into the mainstream, they open up a space for the non-famous people to speak too.

Besides, it makes it more believable that it can happen on the ground if it's known publicly to be happening even in the glittering heights of Hollywood.

@battle exactly. That Hollywood has slapped a hashtag on one facet of it feels to me more likely to harm than benefit.

I'm already seeing many of the men in my life, personally and professionally, start to question themselves when all I have known from them has been kindness, selflessness, care, charm (in the non-oily sense - making a cup of tea for a colleague, not groping them)

If the price of ending sexual harassment and assault of women in the workplace (any anywhere else) is good men questioning themselves, it was well worth it.

You are detracting from the real issue here and shifting focus from what's important. But I think you know that.

@PoorYorick, no. It'd help you concentrate if you could tone down the "part of the problem" "blather tosh" rhetoric. It is not that they're questioning themselves that concerns me, read the words. I'm all for that. It's that they are afraid to speak, and - in my view - for equality we will need them to speak.

OP you say you are not arguing for role reversal or implying there should be role reversal and then in the next breath saying it's happening.

What exactly is it you are advocating for? Can you state clearly and concisely what it is you want to be achieved once the initial furore has calmed down?

What do you mean by men empowering women and other men? Why has it taken this for those decent, kind men to look at themselves and their fellow men and feel uncomfortable? What stopped those decent, kind men from speaking out before, what stopped them challenging the behaviour of their fellow men? Are they only feeling uncomfortable now because they didn't and are now concerned that they are being seen as complicit in that culture (which in my mind they are)? Why is it only now that the subject is in the headlines that these kind, decent men want to speak out and 'empower' women? If they were truly selfless they would have nailed their colours to the mast a long time ago and spoke out.