to wonder if #metoo / #timesup etc will go too far?

[MrsDub]

Realise this is a can of worms but genuinely interested in where my perspective sits in the spectrum (career HR professional & several time veteran of blatant, rampant, tribunal-established sexism/racism in the workplace, to-date ultra sympathetic to the cause).

Starting to worry that the burgeoning (for want of a better phrase) mob mentality (black dresses, Oprah, revisionist criticism of e.g. "Friends") is going to silence voices from the moderate middle ground. I don't want a world where the roles reverse, so where does it stop, and who says so? Feels right now that there's huge momentum behind everyone's agreement that things need to change, but very little in the way of welcome, open debate about how best it might?

(If MN's bored already I'll write to my MP )

Thread not going your way so you want it deleted?

I can't really understand your point. Are you saying we have to be simpering men pleasers so we're treated with respect because not all men are like that? Look how well that's gone over the generations!

It's terrifying. All extremely Orwellian.

Surely the kind, decent, selfless men you know OP have always supported the cause for equality and will continue to do so? Why would a campaign against sexual abuse and harassment of women by powerful men in all workplaces, walks of life, etc., turn anyone away from the cause for equality?

For me these campaigns are a siren call and are shining a light on practises that should have been consigned to the murky depths of history a long, long time ago. There is a chance that's now it is out there and can no longer be ignored that questions will be asked and changes will be made.

If a man isn't going to stand up for women's rights then he isn't going to.
You seem to be blaming women for the fact that men don't stand up against rapists etc.
Are you saying that women who be aggressive or vocal in their criticism?
Are you saying we should not accuse men when we are assaulted, shouted at or whatever?
This doesnt make sense.
Men have got away with things due to the culture of not speaking up. Men have been protected for far too long.

Saying that women are too aggressive and vocal.

You work in hr op......fuck!

If it takes the likes of Oprah Winfrey et al, then so be it oh yes, Saint Oprah who was very chummy with Weinstein and admitted she had heard "rumours".... She's as guilty as all of them.

"In their saner moments" ODFOD!

That's EXACTLY the kind of comment abusers use to discredit their accusers!

Angelsins - sorry have to disagree SOME men have and do actively support and fight for women's rights. Women campaigned for the right to vote but there were male supporters of women's suffrage too, male campaigners for equal pay, for equal career treatment... Men like this don't have to worry about speaking up and in my experience they don't and they call out other men who DO need to feel ashamed.

I'm also not entirely convinced that just by default of username etc that op is a woman.

Mnhq I for one would appreciate if you DON'T delete the thread. Just my opinion.

I'm disappointed you have decided not to stay around and debate an issue you feel quite strongly about, OP, and have requested the thread be deleted. You wanted to start a discussion but don't want to participate in that discussion, how will things progress if that's the case? If you have an opinion, which clearly you do, why not voice it and provide clarification if posters have misunderstood.

You said my questions provided food for thought which was why you started the thread, so what do you think about those questions, what answers would you give? In what way do you think the campaigns are failing or likely to fail? There is a lot there to talk about.

Graphista I completely agree, some individual men have, absolutely, but men as a class haven't, which was what I meant.

I'm already seeing many of the men in my life, personally and professionally, start to question themselves when all I have known from them has been kindness, selflessness, care, charm (in the non-oily sense - making a cup of tea for a colleague, not groping them)... in case it's misconstrued

OP, I realise you’ve probably already dashed, but serious question... what does it look/sound like when these “nice guys” are questioning themselves? What do they think is going to be misconstrued as harassment? Asking how someone’s weekend was or making them a cup of tea? Telling them they like their shirt? Joking about going out on the pull on the weekend? Because I think there’s a lot of false male hand-wringing about this that’s actually a front for not really wanting to confront the issue more deeply, because at a subconscious level even nice guys recognise that genuinely leveling the playing field is going to result in a loss of privilege for them.

Right now there are a lot of men out there who get to both benefit from patriarchy while also getting to pat themselves on the back for being nice guys. And all they’re interested in protecting is their ability to continue to enjoy both benefits.

I'm also not entirely convinced that just by default of username etc that op is a woman.

Of course he's not.

Hi @VWL - haven't but about to - I get it and I agree, I know a lot of them too. But acknowledging that they're not all faux - how to go about promoting those who are genuine and correcting the ones that aren't, and telling the difference? I don't relish treating all men as suspicious until I see a qualifying act of feminism from them (forgive flippant tone, not intended but not sure how else to make the guilty-until-proven-innocent distinction), equally lots are content to rest on the coattails of the few brave ones while - as you say - not "doing anything wrong" (in law).

The law is a huge part of the problem (in my view) - I used to be an employment lawyer with total belief in the system (because I only saw clients who had decided to act) - only when I changed career did I realise how utterly utterly remote and out of reach that option feels to the vast majority of workers, and it's not about money or lack of advice or encouragement. Someone asked earlier if any of the "good men" (inverted commas cleverly designed to suggest they don't exist or I don't know any, I think) I referred to had ever stood up for victims - I've only worked in very male-dominated environments (tech, finance) and yes, absolutely - I've heard directors beg employees to pursue a tribunal with the support of their testimony. It's sheer intimidation and concern for their future if they do it, and I wish I knew how to break that barrier.

Thanks @RedDogs - equally disappointed and dismal about prospects of progress! Fairly new to MN and found much of what I've read on other channels helpful but this isn't the forum for this one, for me - it's not a debate, it's a serial twisting of my words and now drip of personal comments related to my profession and my gender (the irony) which have made me feel embarrassed and hopeless, no doubt the desired outcome, and I can't really think clearly in the face of it. It's my fault, I was warned. The campaign is in trouble if MN is anything to go by, but I suspect it's not - will take my questions somewhere less toxic. Thanks though, genuinely found a lot of what you said thought provoking.

@Yorick - you're terrifying! (and wrong!)

The trouble is, you're not making any coherent points, but you're throwing in a lot of dog-whistle terms and techniques which immediately cause concern. I can't believe anyone who's 'ultra sympathetic to the cause' would find no better word than 'mob mentality' for a mass awareness campaign: like 'hysteria' and 'witch hunt', we all know what that is supposed to mean. The hesitant and uncertain way in which your first post was phrased doesn't sit very well with your subsequent posts, which praise 'rational' responses and undermine dissent as coming from people who wilfully misread you or are spoiling for a fight. And then you want to delete the thread, and say you always knew we were an awful lot, and flounce (then re-flounce) off.

Meanwhile, your point is... what? That raising mass awareness of pervasive sexual coercion, unwanted advances, assaults and silencing, primarily committed by men in positions of economic/executive power against women of lower career status, and saying unequivocably and publicly that it's a bad thing - this is a mistake, because it alienates male allies? Or makes men who've done nothing wrong feel uncomfortable? Or will inevitably lead to the birth of a powerful and viciously entitled matriarchy who will hold the threat of sexual-misconduct-accusations over men's heads in order to achieve all-encompassing dominion over the human race?

If men can't be allies if women protest abuse too vociferously, then they're not allies. We don't have to politely protest. We don't have to tone it down, or make sure we tread the fine line between superficial (hashtags and black dresses are wrong) and strident (shouting about this just alienates people).

Men who've done nothing wrong feeling mildly uncomfortable and uncertain what to say is so laughably disproportionate to the scale of the actual problem that I'm still not convinced that's a serious concern.

The vicious matriarchy? I did hear a book about that being reviewed on radio 4, but I'm pretty sure it was fiction. Also it sounded interesting, so if anyone has further info on that then please chime in before the OP gets this thread pulled.

Absolutely nothing's going to change unless a lot of people say the current situation is wrong. There's no logical case for saying dissent is being voiced to widely or too loudly. This is a cultural problem; even legislative changes can't help if people are too complacent, oblivious or scared to make a complaint.

FFS OP we just don't want to be molested any more, we want to be listened to and respected. I'm sorry if that's going 'too far' in your books. I'm sorry this 'toxic' forum has made you feel 'embarrassed' and 'hopeless'.

Now imagine you're someone who's been masturbated on by someone more powerful than them who has the power to ruin their career. Imagine you routinely get called a bitch in the street for not smiling. Imagine you get someone's cock rubbed against you on the tube on the way to work. How toxic does that feel. Why do you think we're angry?

Tsundoku's post is brilliant.

I'm already seeing many of the men in my life, personally and professionally, start to question themselves when all I have known from them has been kindness, selflessness, care, charm (in the non-oily sense - making a cup of tea for a colleague, not groping them)... in case it's misconstrued (there are plenty of men whose paths I've crossed in the same capacities who do not exemplify all or any of these traits, but they're not in my life). To be clear, none of the people I'm referring to are gropers, objectifiers, "lads" - and they're all feeling ashamed.

If these men are such good guys, why are they ashamed? Because they've looked back at their past conduct and they KNOW some of it has been unacceptable. And that's massively uncomfortable. That's not to say they've been groping women but maybe they haven't spoken up when they've seen harassment or heard misogynistic jokes or known that a mate is behaving very inappropriately with women and said nothing. Maybe they're recalling themselves as teenagers, jokingly coercing a girl into sexual activities she didn't want. There are many thins that could be making them uncomfortable.

And the thing is - these are the things that the good guys are worrying about (and rightly so). Even the nicest guys you know if they're honest with themselves can think of instances where they haven't done the right thing. What do you think the rest of the guys would think about if they actually were willing to stop and think?

Men questioning their behaviour is exactly what needs to happen. So no, this is not things going too far. Given that most men I've spoken to are still too defensive to question themselves, it's not gone anywhere near far enough.

Men questioning their behaviour is exactly what needs to happen. So no, this is not things going too far. Given that most men I've spoken to are still too defensive to question themselves, it's not gone anywhere near far enough.

Yep!

If you are still reading OP, perhaps ask my questions to the men you reference in your post and see what their answers are it may well be eye-opening for you as I suspect their answers will chime with the post made by TammySwansonTwo at 23.08. No-one feels ashamed if they have nothing to feel ashamed about.

I personally don't think the campaign is in trouble, the genie is out of the bottle and attitudes and behaviours are being looked at and challenged. Those who closed their eyes and ears to it are, rightly, having to face the consequences of their inaction, in future I believe more men will speak out and openly challenge this behaviour because they don't want to be tarred with the same brush as the perpetrators. Long term I hope, and tentatively believe, that there will be a complete shift in attitudes and there will be a strengthening of laws and consequences.

Have my first ever MN .

I'm guessing you want the thread deleted because you've been so inconsistent. With every post you've attempted to change what you're saying (because people have argued against it). So you said on p2 'I haven't at any point said I think roles are reversing' but in your first post you said 'I don't want roles to reverse' which only makes sense if you're worried that they might. Then when people point out inconsistencies like this, you say they are wilfully misreading you. Still, I'm sure you were a total hotshot as an employment lawyer.