to wonder if #metoo / #timesup etc will go too far?

[MrsDub]

Realise this is a can of worms but genuinely interested in where my perspective sits in the spectrum (career HR professional & several time veteran of blatant, rampant, tribunal-established sexism/racism in the workplace, to-date ultra sympathetic to the cause).

Starting to worry that the burgeoning (for want of a better phrase) mob mentality (black dresses, Oprah, revisionist criticism of e.g. "Friends") is going to silence voices from the moderate middle ground. I don't want a world where the roles reverse, so where does it stop, and who says so? Feels right now that there's huge momentum behind everyone's agreement that things need to change, but very little in the way of welcome, open debate about how best it might?

(If MN's bored already I'll write to my MP )

But it is only over the past couple of years, post Savile to my knowledge and now Weinstein that the media and authorities are finally doing something about abuse. We are so far from going too far. It may feel like a massive movement because we are so used to putting up and shutting up and not really hearing women's voices. It could easily be just a blip and forgotten news. It would be far easier for the establishment to draw a line, pay lip service to the problem and then carry on as before. That's why hashtag awareness campaigns are necessary.

It's high profile because something happened in Hollywood. It will make zero difference except possibly the casting couch will be used more discreetly. Won't make any difference to ordinary women.

Will be almost forgotten about this time next year.

Given that we are only at the very beginning of this movement and that sexism and sexual harassment are still absolutely rife, I think you can put your fears of 'going too far' to rest until they actually become a possibility.

@PoorYorick, no. It'd help you concentrate if you could tone down the "part of the problem" "blather tosh" rhetoric. It is not that they're questioning themselves that concerns me, read the words. I'm all for that. It's that they are afraid to speak, and - in my view - for equality we will need them to speak.

I read the words, and I thought them to be utter shite, and I told you why. You will always be part of the problem if you think the only reason anyone could disagree with you is because they're too thick to understand what you're saying.

If that's how you feel (and it clearly is), then at least do not pretend you want a discussion.

What are they afraid to speak about? Why weren't they speaking before this when they presumably weren't afraid? What do you think they have to contribute that is so important to the debate?

Presumably when a debate on equality starts it is the voices of the people who are not equal that need to be heard.

Gone to far?! Are women suddenly raping and sexually abusing men in huge numbers then? I must have missed that....

@RedDogs I'm not sure why you think so, I haven't at any point said I think roles are reversing. To my knowledge I don't know any men who have been discriminated against (on the grounds of sex), harassed or assaulted in the workplace or anywhere else and I haven't detailed any such thing. Unless I'm mistaken, #metoo and #timesup refer to those issues.

I'm not advocating for anything, again, never said I was - I asked questions because I was interested in views. Your own third paragraph of questions is fascinating and exactly what I was looking for - much food for thought and I think I agree with you on complicity. Passively, anyway - not saying Tim-nice-but-dim by the watercooler is the problem but evil succeeds etc.

@anymajordude yes see your point. So I suppose what I'm after, or think is missing, is meaningful action behind the hashtags that actually moves the needle here. Otherwise it's just PR? I know many in Hollywood set up and contributed to a workplace legal defence fund over the GG weekend, which feels like a step in the right direction but it's only that? As in - where's the minister for women and equalities in all this?

*too

Gone to far?! Are women suddenly raping and sexually abusing men in huge numbers then?

No, but some nice men the OP knows are now considering their own behaviour, and that is a much, much more pressing issue. Opening the matter of sexual harassment and abuse to the mainstream is a Very Serious Concern for "Mrs" Dub.

OP, you wrote this: I've seen tens of people discriminated against in the workplace, with a watertight case, who are simply too intimidated by the imbalance of power to take it further, and found it hideously sad/felt totally powerless.

Where were all the kind, decent, caring, selfless ones then that could have supported or added weight to the case?

You want to write to your MP to say that too many women are speaking out about the fact they have been sexual assaulted?

Otherwise it's just PR?

How do you think the wheels ever get set in motion for social change? Do you think people just all up and decide overnight to do something about it without there being any sort of mainstream discussion and awareness raising about it? And that when they do, it all just changes in a flash?

Thus far, the only change we have is that famous women who have been treated like shit by powerful men for many years are now making it public. And your concern is that it's going "too far" and people you like are questioning themselves, and Oh My Heavens The Humanity Where Will It All End?

Are you actually for real?

YABVVVVVVVVVVVVU

The mob mentality comment (especially when you consider the number of women attacked by men en masse) is bloody offensive.

Omg SO many bloody depressing threads at the moment it's like the women's rights movement never even happened!!

"Actually, I think it’s just too superficial" are you aware that "time's up" isn't just raising awareness and showing support there's also been a charity set up which had already raised over $15 million for a legal defence fund. I don't think that's superficial that's actual practical help.

"what happened then isn't acceptable now" it was NEVER acceptable - over 30 years since I was first assaulted.

Big changes start with small steps op, you can't effect global change overnight. Hollywood people have done what they can with what they have which is actually all anyone can do. Did you watch the globes? Did you watch the interviews on the red carpet? Where E! For example were getting repeatedly pulled up on their own gender discrimination? Where actors had brought as their plus 1's people very active in obtaining better treatment and more rights and protection for women and who have been doing so in some cases for DECADES?

"start to question themselves" Good! Hopefully they question other men too.

"the price of ending sexual harassment and assault of women in the workplace (any anywhere else) is good men questioning themselves, it was well worth it." Hear hear!

I agree with reddogs likelihood is they're not afraid to speak up they're ashamed to - because they never did before.

You seem very confused OP. You say you've seen rampant sexism in the workplace and people feeling they can't take things forward because they are powerless, but your concern is for men. Why? because it's a bit shaming/embarrassing to find out that some other men have behaved very badly indeed?

A small number of men have also reported sexual abuse and harassment (from other men). It may well have been very difficult for them to report that, and I'm glad that they were able to come forward.

People in power have always abused people without power. Calling them out for it is the only way to hold them to account. The more unacceptable behaviour is called out the more likely for culture to change so that no one abuses anyone. How can this be anything other than a good thing?

Hollywood creating a feel good movement (for some of them) may not be the best response and I agree that more action is required, but that action is likely to make some men unhappy. Perhaps if more men had said something in the first place there wouldn't be the number of accusations in the first place.

You say you've seen rampant sexism in the workplace and people feeling they can't take things forward because they are powerless, but your concern is for men. Why?

Why, indeed. Why, oh why.

No, but some nice men the OP knows are now considering their own behaviour, and that is a much, much more pressing issue. Opening the matter of sexual harassment and abuse to the mainstream is a Very Serious Concern for "Mrs" Dub.

Oh gosh, well rape and abuse victims really need to STFU then if poor Nice Guys are having to question themselves. The horror!

If it takes the likes of Oprah Winfrey et al, then so be it.

I don't care who speaks up against the mysoginy that has been festering.

I'm another one observing how on earth things can possibly go too far the other way.

Do you mean women being paid more than men for doing the same job. Men being shouted at in public for being in public. Men being told they are too fat/old/past it whilst women the same age and older breeze along. Men attacked and assaulted by women then being told it is their fault because of the clothing they wore/ the fact they are not a virgin/they drink alcohol, or simply fought back too much so aggravated their attacker.
Is this what you mean?

I must be totally misunderstanding what you are saying but this is what I was referring to when I said you appear to saying that role reversal is happening:

by middle ground I mean equality, and by role reversal - I'm already seeing many of the men in my life, personally and professionally, start to question themselves when all I have known from them has been kindness, selflessness, care, charm (in the non-oily sense - making a cup of tea for a colleague, not groping them)... in case it's misconstrued (there are plenty of men whose paths I've crossed in the same capacities who do not exemplify all or any of these traits, but they're not in my life). To be clear, none of the people I'm referring to are gropers, objectifiers, "lads" - and they're all feeling ashamed. I suppose my worry is that they're too nervous to speak when actually part of what, in my view, is required is that they speak up, continue to lead by example and empower women, and other men, - I fear people like that throughout any community feeling that contributing will get their heads bitten off. Which unfortunately this thread hasn't done anything to abate. I was nervous to ask anonymously as a woman and a victim of discrimination, I can't imagine how it would feel for a man in a meeting room.

That sounds like an argument that role reversal is happening as you are saying men are now frightened to speak out, which I don't believe at all by the way, if it isn't what exactly are you trying to illustrate with that paragraph?

Lordy, alright you lot - can't say I wasn't warned.

Most of you are wilfully misreading my point, which isn't concern for men, never was, it's concern that we will not have the support of men in the fight for equality (which I think might be important), but whatever - nothing I can do if you'd rather be outraged than read the thread.

I probably am confused, because I have only my own experience to go on, and was interested to read what e.g Graphista and RedDogs (in their saner moments) had to say. I'll report the thread. Hopefully you'll rest easy having fought the good fight.

Thanks for the rational thoughts!

mrsdub when did we ever have men's support? We've had to fight them for every right we've won.

Crikey, you're patronising

@ the OP

I'm not wilfully misreading your point, as I said I am probably misunderstanding what it is you are trying to say and illustrate with your examples and to ascertain what your vision for the future post the 'metoo' and 'TimesUp' campaigns is.

I was assaulted at work by a much older man, was 5 months pregnant at the time and he was a buddy of the MD maybe if I’d been older, wiser I would have done something about it. But I was young and scared that somehow I would be blamed. Maybe if #MeToo stops another young girl being assaulted because the guy knows he might be outed or makes the girl brave enough to speak up then I’m all for it. 20years later I’m angry I let him get away with it.