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AIBU?

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Original poster

H&M mother has said for people to 'get over it'

450 replies

WomanEmpire · 11/01/2018 14:28

Apparently she has said on Facebook it's people 'crying wolf' and to 'get over it'

Wdyt?

I personally think H&M are counting their lucky stars and have sort of preyed on her, (this is very presumptuous, so I am prepared to be shot down) knowing that perhaps as someone who is native Nigerian and moved to Sweden (I think relatively recently, but again pull me up on this if I'm incorrect) might not be quite as aware of the racism that incurs in the US/UK, as those who live in these countries and wouldn't think to second guess in a shoot, because you'd trust such a popular retailer to not have racist slurs put on a jumper and modelled by a child, who could quite possibly still be called this by those idiots. Because I still can't believe that NO ONE along the process picked up on this.

I'm not saying racism doesn't occur in other countries but I have experience of those two countries.

OP posts:
JAPAB · 13/01/2018 13:34

I meant to finish (because obviously that wasn't already long enough) that the notion of a sole arbritrator is meaningless when it comes to words.

There have been people on this thread who suggest that white people do not and/or should "shut up". Not so much over the meaning of a word, but whether something qualifies as racist or offensive. It does appear that some want arbritraton to be for a limited demographic.

DreamyMcDreamy · 13/01/2018 13:35

And it is not impossible for a company to either not think of, or misjudge the reaction that the public or section of the public might have.

You might have an unthinking point if it was a small family run business, say.
A massive big one though? How many people did it have to go through and NOT ONE thought "hang on a minute?!"
The stylists, the make up artists, the photographer, the editor of the photos, etc etc etc......

All speculations aside, what happened, happened, and if someone says that they ought not have done it, they were wrong to do this, then they are asking people to modify their behaviour

What on earth is wrong with asking people not to unthinkingly or otherwise not be racist? Only people who have a problem with that is surely racists themselves!
I mean, if you're not racist in the first place you'd have no problem not coming out with racist shit to start with.....

JAPAB · 13/01/2018 13:40

ToffeeUp You still think their upset is unreasonable?

If it was just a case of being upset then I have no comment to make. People can be reminded by all sorts of things, of upsetting things that have happened to them.

To follow this up with 'that ad company is therefore wrong to have a black child wearing that top' or 'the mother in the park was therefore wrong to have her child wear that top' that changes things.

It is then you get into the whole 'AIBU' thing.

bummymummy77 · 13/01/2018 13:47

Jesus fucking Christ. It not a casual vague reminder of something that upsets people. Angry

My ex boyfriend was a professional footballer and seeing him in tears because he'd been called "something really awful regarding monkeys (can't say what because some asshole will report it and Mumsnet will delete it Angry)" will never leave me.

He was mostly upset because he wasn't sure he wanted to bring children in to a world like this. Fucking heartbreaking.

So take your People can be reminded by all sorts of things, of upsetting things that have happened to them and shove it up your bottom please.

JAPAB · 13/01/2018 13:58

DreamyMcDreamy A massive big one though? How many people did it have to go through and NOT ONE thought "hang on a minute?!"
The stylists, the make up artists, the photographer, the editor of the photos, etc etc etc......

It wouldn't have to be the case that no-one thought anything. Maybe the person picking the best photos for each top had a flash of a thought but then thought it wasn't an issue. Or maybe the person who had to approve the entire set once selected and arranged, raised the question but others thought it wasn't particularly an issue. We can only speculate. As I say, it is possible for businesses, even big ones, to misjudge or not think things are as much of an issue as they will then turn out to be.

So it does not have to be that they were deliberately being racist or at least provocative.

What on earth is wrong with asking people not to unthinkingly or otherwise not be racist?

Nothing at all. If the thing in question actually is racist. That's the rub here though, isn't it.

Notreallyarsed · 13/01/2018 14:00

If the thing in question actually is racist

If black people are telling you, loudly, that it’s racist and offends and distresses them, why wouldn’t you accept it?

JAPAB · 13/01/2018 14:03

bummymummy77 sorry to hear that. Really I am. In that case I hope he never sees the catalougue or a black child wearing that top around town.

bummymummy77 · 13/01/2018 14:05

@JAPAB thanks.

And for what it's worth, every single one of my black friends found it racist. Not one, or a few, all.

corythatwas · 13/01/2018 14:15

"I don't know how I managed to grow up in the 70s without all this stuff confused"

oh, that one's simple

it's because anyone who was black or Asian was growing up around you knowing that they must not say what they were thinking, that they must pretend that they were absolutely fine with being called monkeys and Pakis, that saying what you think without getting beaten up for it didn't apply to them

you had the kind of free speech which means nobody is going to call you out on what you say, whatever you say- because not everybody had free speech

DreamyMcDreamy · 13/01/2018 14:19

Nothing at all. If the thing in question actually is racist. That's the rub here though, isn't it.

Lots of people are telling you, LOUDLY, both blacks and white, exactly where the problem lies with the top and what they did, and that it IS racist and deeply offensive!
Why would you not listen or care unless you yourself are part of the problem?!

corythatwas · 13/01/2018 14:20

Incidentally, it is possible that the fact that the model lived in Sweden (if the OP is correct on that score) is mildly relevant to the initial decision.

Sweden has its own brand of racism, but until very recently very little experience of black Africans, virtually no colonial past etc. The word monkey used of a black African is possibly not well known there (though plenty of other offensive and racist language around).

That is no excuse! H & M are a massive international chain who are huge in the UK market and this advert was for use in this country. You don't do that without doing your research beforehand. Somebody must have known, somebody should have told them. If nobody did, then that's because nobody cared.

DreamyMcDreamy · 13/01/2018 14:21

you had the kind of free speech which means nobody is going to call you out on what you say, whatever you say- because not everybody had free speech

Very good way of looking at it.

Notreallyarsed · 13/01/2018 14:24

you had the kind of free speech which means nobody is going to call you out on what you say, whatever you say- because not everybody had free speech

Can I just pop up again to say this is the perfect example of white privilege? I didn’t realise it was a thing until I did some research and it was a real eye opener. It made me feel ashamed.

quencher · 13/01/2018 15:32

Sweden has its own brand of racism, but until very recently very little experience of black Africans, virtually no colonial past etc. The word monkey used of a black African is possibly not well known there (though plenty of other offensive and racist language around). About 20 years go my aunt got killed by racist who stalked and constantly racially abused her. This was in Sweden.

To say their experience of racism is different is not true. They were one of the counties that supported Germany/hitler's regime by helping to manufacture weapons. They are not that innocent when it comes to racism.

Good read about Sweden
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/18/racism-becoming-the-norm-sweden

corythatwas · 13/01/2018 15:44

quencher, how on earth can

"Sweden has its own brand of racism, but until very recently very little experience of black Africans ... plenty of other offensive and racist language around" be construed as "Swedes are not racist"???!!!

Supporting Hitler because a lot of them were anti-Semitic is exactly what I meant by saying it was a different racism. Still racism, still just as bad, just not directed at black people because there weren't really any around.

I have never attempted to deny Swedish racism.

ToffeeUp · 13/01/2018 15:45

Another case of racism in football

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42674810

But I am sure some people will say that many people love chocolate....

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 13/01/2018 15:49

All the people who think it's just a hoody - would you buy it for a black child you knew? And if you did and his parents didn't look impressed, what would you make of that?

JAPAB · 13/01/2018 16:12

Notreallyarsed If black people are telling you, loudly, that it’s racist and offends and distresses them, why wouldn’t you accept it?

But I do accept that there are some black people who feel that way. That is a separate issue than whether someone else is therefore doing something wrong.

Around ten years ago there was an ad in America for some sort of condiment that caused some controversy because it featured two men kissing.

All I am aying is is that people are entitled to have whatever reactions they have, but when it comes to declaring the people who caused those reactions wrong or expecting them to have acted differently, the reactions alone are not enough. There has to be a reasonable basis for them. So people can assert "offensive" and "racist" as loudly as they like. It is the reasons that matter most IMO.

At this point we will have to part company. No doubt you and others think it is reasonable for someone to find a black child wearing that top offensive and distressing either in itself, or because it reminds them of bad events in their lives. It is not just going to be white people who can't agree that this is enough to make either the ad or a parent who puts heir child in that top, wrong.

JAPAB · 13/01/2018 16:17

All the people who think it's just a hoody - would you buy it for a black child you knew? And if you did and his parents didn't look impressed, what would you make of that?

The parents are the ultimate arbitrators here, so if they had an issue I would say that that is up to them. They are perfectly entitled to object. It is when they seek to stop other parents from putting their children in such a top, that you get into the whole 'are their objections reasonable' thing.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 13/01/2018 16:36

Right, so you'd think 'ah yes, I see why you have a problem with this, I'm sorry I should have thought it through'? Or, 'for your own very idiosyncratic reasons you have some kind of problem, and that is your own affair: I shall give the hoody to another black child I know'?

Buck3t · 13/01/2018 16:51

@JAPAB But here, a black child wearing a generic 'coolest monkey' slogan? Since the only reason I can see for this offence is that it reminds some people of racism, not sure personally. Just my opinion though, as I say.

Thank you for your thoughts on this. I think youmade some good points. Can I just correct this last one. It's not just a generic slogan.

Stand alone - Coolest monkey - oh okay. Coolest monkey in the jungle - Dodgy, Standing with a lovely white boy wearing 'Mangrove Jungle expert survivor' - "GTFOH" is what someone shoiuld have said, but didn't.

I presume they are culturally unaware, or never came into cotnact with stuff like that, so do not understand the significance. It is right that they withdrew that advert. It would not be right to take the jumper off the shelf. If someone bought the jumper for one of my children, I would thank them for it. They need not know anything else about it. If someone bought it now after the furore, I'd know it was a joke. I can laugh with my friends about race.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 13/01/2018 17:15

No doubt you and others think it is reasonable for someone to find a black child wearing that top offensive and distressing either in itself

And has anyone said this

Going with no as i don't remember reading it

DreamyMcDreamy · 13/01/2018 17:30

*Stand alone - Coolest monkey - oh okay. Coolest monkey in the jungle - Dodgy, Standing with a lovely white boy wearing 'Mangrove Jungle expert survivor'

Exactly this, and it's been said over and over but some just don't want to listen.

quencher · 13/01/2018 17:35

Around ten years ago there was an ad in America for some sort of condiment that caused some controversy because it featured two men kissing. And the comparison is ? Is it that one day we will get used to it and get over it? I don't get it. What is your point?

DreamyMcDreamy · 13/01/2018 18:02

Around ten years ago there was an ad in America for some sort of condiment that caused some controversy because it featured two men kissing.

Yes, and? So one day racism will be seen as "accepted" again and we should all accept racism and move on?
Just....wow

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