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AIBU?

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Original poster

To not automatically support my male friend (potentially triggering!)

383 replies

User14356 · 10/01/2018 02:21

Agh this is keeping me up tonight, sorry if it’s a bit rambly

My very close, male friend (totally platonic) picked up a woman last weekend at a club. I had left earlier in the night, from what I was told, they were drunk, she had a screaming argument with her friend and then he took her home. Things were done but they didn’t have full sex.

Cut to today and I get a worried message from my male friend saying he has been contacted by this girl saying he took advantage, he is a sex offender and that she’s going to go to the police. This text message was sent at 4am and badly spelled so the assumption is that she was drunk.

I want to believe my friend, but I’m now massively morally split, between not wanting to call this girl a liar, but then not being there for him if the accusations are blown out or false. For now, I’ve been supportive. Is there any way to manage this situation without taking sides- AIBU to have doubts about my friend?

OP posts:
FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 19:20

Pumper

in most cases

AssassinatedBeauty · 10/01/2018 19:24

It happens @Megs4x3, repeatedly and frequently. Why do you say that it doesn't?

The idea that it's frequently the case that you can be found guilty of rape despite there being definitive evidence that the victim has never had sex is ridiculous. Verdicts can be questioned if there is a reason to believe there was a wrongful conviction. That's why there are appeals and further recourse once all appeals are exhausted.

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2018 19:25

Freddie - which cases? Do you mean if it’s not a high-profile case the name of the accused shouldn’t be released?

Megs4x3 · 10/01/2018 19:33

Getting an appeal is notiriously difficult. Theres no legal aid for a start. Appealing a conviction requires new evidence. The juries decision on the evidence presented will not be questioned. Please check it out if you don't believe me. Of course much of what I am saying is ridiculous and thats at least part of the point.

FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 19:34

It depends on the legal system (btw).

It would be preferable if the names of sentenced people were released (and if they could be tried for other crimes. As I said, depends on the country.)
One could also do public witness appeals without releasing the accused’s or the victim’s identity.

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2018 19:36

INVESTIGATED is the word!

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2018 19:38

Sorry, that was in response to this:

So using the we believe you implies that the person they accuse / identify as the perpetrator are guilty no matter what

I meant they’d still be INVESTIGATED regardless of the crime they’d committed.

ClaryFray · 10/01/2018 19:41

Support him. He's innocent until proven otherwise.

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2018 19:43

Freddie, How can they do a public witness appeal with no names or identifying details about either person involved in the assault in order to encourage other victims to come forward?

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 10/01/2018 19:46

Absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of apologists and victim blamers on here who would support a likely sex offender.

I think some of you need to read the MN We Believe You campaign

Megs4x3 · 10/01/2018 19:58

Apologists and victim blamers? A probable sex offender?

I guess we're off on the 'guilty until proved innocence' trail. Those falsely accused, and there are many, are victims too.

A well, the discussion was nice while it lasted.

And OP, you can support your friend without making assumptions about what either of them did or did not do. He has as much right to be believed as any woman.

FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 20:02

they do it often in various countries (although more commonly for witnesses and not potential victims).

The phrasing would obviously depend on whether it was about witnessing the crime or being a victim / possibly on a different occasion.
We could also have databanks, a confidential alert system...

There are several legal experts, people that have experience with public outreach, policing, victim support etc (people that - unlike I - are actually genuinely familiar with the legalities in the U.K.) that could probably come up with a solution that would protect the wrongly accused, their families, children etc.

And the media frenzy in high profile cases usually doesn’t seem to help.

Also (as I said) the option of releasing the name after a conviction (and allowing a trial in the case of other accusation) seems preferable.

AssassinatedBeauty · 10/01/2018 20:28

@FreddieClaryHorshieLion why is protecting the small number wrongly accused of sexual assault/rape more important than allowing a full investigation into any possible crime? Would you recommend the same for other serious crimes like murder and GBH?

worridmum · 10/01/2018 20:31

Yes a under 16 accused of a sexual crime will get at best 4 hours of tutoring as they rightly will be excluding from school if the victim is at same school, even if found not guilty or no further action that's at least 6 months of school lost (i had a case that ran for 1.5 years no school would take him while undergoing investigation and teachers/ someone kept leaking that a investigated sexual offender was being transferred to school so parents we up in arms so could not attend a different school) when it was found to be nothing as there was no case to answer.

his life was ruined as he missed GCSE years no funding for GSCE so no a levels no chance of university, as apparently his 4 hours a week tuition form the LEA should of been enough for him to do GSCEs they refused him funding for further training and sixth form collages / normal collages would not take him because of no gcses....) and people still hold on to the myth accusations don't effect someones lives just because rich and powerful ones can keep going as if nothing happened.

worridmum · 10/01/2018 20:38

that's not 4 hours for each subject its 4 hours in total 1 afternoon a week for his GCSEs. While i don't disagree that he should be excluded from school until the investigation has been completed they accused deserves a proper education and 4 hours a week is not adequate.

Thankfully he managed to bring about a successful lawsuit against the LEA and his former school (they did not discharge there duty as in provide work etc) it took 8 years as the LEA and school vigorously defended the lawsuit with the local newspaper spay more bio as apparently he should just be happy he did not go to prison and had a cheek to sue the underfunded LEA and school for their gross negligence of his education.

FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 20:47

I would make the same statment about murder, yes.

I could be flippant and ask whether you believe that publicising the identity of the accused would lead to murder victims coming forward... but that’s not particularly constructive.

Anyhow: yes, because of the status of the accused. The accused has not been found guilty yet.

The accused therefore has the same rights as anyone else in regards to honour, personal reputation etc. unless there is what one might reasonably believe to be an overwhelming public interest. But I’d be very cautious. Also for the sake of their families, children etc.

Megs4x3 · 10/01/2018 21:01

FreddieClaryHorshieLion

Rights are one thing but what does the accused do when suspended or let go from work, Social Services tell you to leave the family home because you are a risk to your children, family and friends peel away becaus you 'probably' did it and it takes 2 years or more for the authorities to make a decision.

'Rights' don't get you an income, pay the bills or build a relationship with your children.

Worridmum your post illustrates oerfectly how boys and men are punished well in advance of the truth being established, and how the damage can be too extensive to rectify. False accusations are life-changing.

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2018 21:02

Megs what’s your solution to stopping false accusations? What should we change?

FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 21:13

suspended or let go from work:
well, if the accused is in a position where it would be dangerous to let him or her continue to work if they were later proven to be true a termination or suspension is imo unavoidable.

Social Services tell you to leave the family home because you are a risk to your children:
so now we’re talking about child abuse and pedophilia? I will value the children’s safety more. Wouldn’t you?

family and friends peel away becaus you 'probably' did it:

I believe that the right to privacy would immensely help in this case.

and it takes 2 years or more for the authorities to make a decision.

A speedy trial should always be the ultimate goal.

If you are asking me to find a solution that will guarantee total justice to the possibly wrongly accused or to the (alleged) victim? It’s impossible. For any crime.

Megs4x3 · 10/01/2018 21:13

We can't stop them entirely. I think we could remove the incentive for financial gain and only compensate when a guilty verdict has been reached or offer counselling instead. In Germany, I believe it was, reports dropped by a huge percentage when financial compensation was stopped. We could make sure that the police 'follow the evidence'. Too often they refuse to take statements

FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 21:16

False accusations are life-changing.

And so is rape. And what victim’s often have to go through to possibly get justice.

And the unfortunate truth is that most rapists will claim that they’re wrongly accused.

Not having one night stands or drunk sex could be a solution to decrease the risk of raping someone or false rape accusations....

FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 21:17

In Germany, I believe it was, reports dropped by a huge percentage when financial compensation was stopped. We could make sure that the police 'follow the evidence'. Too often they refuse to take statements

I grew up with a system very similar to the German one. There are some ‘snags’ (like the protection of the victim and their family....) but it’s not a bad one.

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2018 21:22

Megs you know more about the compensation than I do, I’ve never heard of that before, so I don’t know how much of an incentive that is to come forward. But I don’t see how removing it would help victims of false accusations unless people are solely doing it for the money. And how do you decide if an accusation is false? Does it have to go through court first, in which case everyone knows about it anyway and the damage is done, or do you just decide to believe the person who says they didn’t do it?

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2018 21:23

Plus just because reports dropped doesn’t mean the number of rapes occurring dropped. It means fewer people reported them, which surely cannot be a good thing.

AssassinatedBeauty · 10/01/2018 21:23

Yes we do have to get all these reports of rape down to protect boys and men, that must be a top priority. And if you can't get a guilty verdict in your rape case then you absolutely mustn't be given any compensation for any injuries, as there was no crime and you probably lied about it anyway.

@FreddieClaryHorshieLion I'm sure there will have been cases where the naming of a murder suspect will have led to friends and relatives of other murder victims coming forward to name the suspect as responsible for their loved one's death.