To not automatically support my male friend (potentially triggering!)

[User14356]

Agh this is keeping me up tonight, sorry if it’s a bit rambly

My very close, male friend (totally platonic) picked up a woman last weekend at a club. I had left earlier in the night, from what I was told, they were drunk, she had a screaming argument with her friend and then he took her home. Things were done but they didn’t have full sex.

Cut to today and I get a worried message from my male friend saying he has been contacted by this girl saying he took advantage, he is a sex offender and that she’s going to go to the police. This text message was sent at 4am and badly spelled so the assumption is that she was drunk.

I want to believe my friend, but I’m now massively morally split, between not wanting to call this girl a liar, but then not being there for him if the accusations are blown out or false. For now, I’ve been supportive. Is there any way to manage this situation without taking sides- AIBU to have doubts about my friend?

IF an accused person was innocent, had ultimately been found innocent in a court of law, and the accuser had lied, would they be justified in pursuing the accuser with a private case for, say, defamation?

I have to say, if someone had maliciously accused me of assault, and the CPS were too cowardly to prosecute for perjury/wasting police time, I'd remortgage my house in order to get some kind of justice/revenge. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the likes of Liam Allen chose to do the same in order to obtain a very public vindication of their innocence.

You're welcome IRufustherenegadereindeer1 It would be so good if there could be reasonable and reasoned discussion about this very important topic and some redress for the people whose lives are in turmoil for months even years at a time. There are so many changes that need to be made so that victims are protected, and someone falsely accused of a crime is just as much a victim. Drunken encounters are especially difficult; men are not the only ones to make fools of themselves in sexual situations. Women do it too. Assuming the man always has intentions of 'taking advantage' is neither fair nor accurate.

Babycham1979 Its not that easy. Freddie Starr tried that, lost the case and it cost him close to £1million. He also had to pay all costs on both sides. There have been a number of high profile attempts over the years and all failed. Its much easier to 'prove' that an event that never happened did happen than prove defamation. And whats the point of trying if the person you're trying to sue has no money? Many false accusers claim compensation and show every sign of spending it as fast as they can.

Babycham According to reports before Christmas, Liam Allen is going to sue both the CPS and the Police over the case for withholding the disc of some 40,000 text messages in which these messages which prove - not throw doubt on - there was no rape whatsoever. At that point, he had not received an apology from either organisation - which I think is a disgrace.

Ironically, he is a criminology student.

I suspect he will not sue the woman who made the false allegation. I also suspect the CPS and Police will not prosecute her at all. And she will continue to remain anonymous. No one wants to be seen to be vindictive or do anything that could potentially stop people coming forward.

Well, the decision to prosecute vexatious allegations may well appear vindictive, but justice should be seen to be done, and natural justice in particular.

Having had your reputation thoroughly traduced, career ruined and relationships destroyed, surely the most public confirmation of your innocence would be the most natural thing to seek.

I don't recognise the Met and CPS's behaviour as negligence; I actually see it as malign. Thanks to mindless, politicised targets set by the likes of Alison Saunders, guilt seems secondary to obtaining a successful prosecution. This is an appalling situation.

Those who have successfully agitated for increased prosecution rates at any cost have possibly pushed the pendulum too far, and will be responsible for the consequences when it inevitably swings the other way and - for example - the current approach to anonymity is reversed.

This is why people shouldn't get hopelessly drunk. He made a stupid decision by going home with somebody obviously in a state who seemed a bit unstable. If he was sober he wouldn't have done that. As the law stands it is his job to get consent and drunkenness isn't a defence so if she was incapable of giving it he would be guilty.

Having said that, if you know him and trust him I would privately give him the benefit of the doubt. This woman was having a screaming row drunk in the street with her friends and then a few days later is drunk sending texts in the middle of the night. It does sound possible she may have some ishoos.

I tell you something though. I am giving my son's VERY firm instructions not to get so drunk they can't be absolutely certain consent is given. And never to have one night stands or be alone with drunk women.

Elton If someone wants a one night stand, and they are sober, what's wrong with that?

I am giving my son's VERY firm instructions not to get so drunk they can't be absolutely certain consent is given.

Would that benefit anyone in this case? Certainly not the friend. He isn't suggesting he was too drunk to know if he did anything wrong.

I tell you something though. I am giving my son's VERY firm instructions not to get so drunk they can't be absolutely certain consent is given. And never to have one night stands or be alone with drunk women.

That is a very good idea Elton.
It would be good if schools would do teach this too. Instead of drunk women being seen as fair game, teach boys not to get drunk themselves and not to have sex with drunk women. (Even tipsy is too drunk imo if a girl has no experience of drinking.)

As the law stands it is his job to get consent and drunkenness isn't a defence so if she was incapable of giving it he would be guilty.

If that's the case, then the law is an ass. A grown woman has as much sexual agency as a man. To suggest otherwise is deeply unfeminist, illogical and, frankly, unthinkingly dogmatic.

The anti-sex Victorian prudes, pretending to be progressives are dangerous extremists. This won't end well for individuals, or for society.

Elton If someone wants a one night stand, and they are sober, what's wrong with that?

I would advise them (that from a man's point of view) one night stands are risky because you are essentially putting some very important things in the hands of a stranger that you can't know well enough to trust. For a start there is always the risk of pregnancy. For a second you don't know if that person is stable and might harass you afterwards, thirdly the chance of regret and possible allegations as a result are always higher with one night stands.

I think for boys and girls the best option is to advise them that they are very precious and they should only give themselves to someone they trust implicitly.

You wouldn't give a stranger in a club £200 to look after, so why would you do something which risks your health, safety and future?

It's not morally a problem with one night stands. Just safety wise.

But there is an issue with males and predatory sexual behaviour of the type that is statistically rare in females.

I wish this were not the case but we won’t change it by pretending a significant percentage of males don’t view females who are drunk or distressed as prey. Or that society does not encourage this view.

Your friend might normally be a good man but he was drunk and those messages are very strong.

I’d be upset with any of my friends or relatives who had behaved like this. If he wanted to hook up with her, he should have arranged to meet another time.

Unless he knew she wouldn’t have consented unless she was drunk and emotional.

would advise them (that from a man's point of view) one night stands are risky because you are essentially putting some very important things in the hands of a stranger that you can't know well enough to trust. For a start there is always the risk of pregnancy. For a second you don't know if that person is stable and might harass you afterwards, thirdly the chance of regret and possible allegations as a result are always higher with one night stands.

I’m not quite sure why that’s from a man’s point of view...? Most of these things would be true from a women’s point of view as well.
The risk of pregnancy, harassment, stalking and STDs is just as high for women as for men (actually, it’s higher for women in the case of some STDs).
There’s also the risk (generally much higher for women) of going to a secluded area with a usually physically stronger stranger.

The only risk that’s lower for women (mostly because many people - ime especially men - think men can’t be sexuall assaulted) is the risk of false rape allegations.

The very fact you’re asking whether you are unreasonable to doubt your friend is all the answer you need.

So, for example, if I was in the exact same situation as you but the man in question was my brother or my ex husband - I wouldn’t be on mumsnet asking if it was unreasonable to have doubts. Why? Because I would have no doubts. None. Zilch. Nada.

Elton, lots of people have consensual, enjoyable one night stands after a few drinks, with no ill effects. Sometimes people have sex drunk that they wouldn't have had sober, and shrug it off as no real harm done. There is nothing wrong with doing this.

In the case of OP's friend, we haven't got anything like enough information to know what really happened. If it was a friend of mine who was telling me about it, I would be mentally assessing what I knew about my friend (has he ever been a bit too hands-on when drunk? What's his general attitude towards women? Is he a rescuer-type? Naive? What's his track record like WRT sex/relationships?)
And the stuff I would want to ask him if he hadn't already told me - 'took her home' - to his home, or her home? Whose suggestion was it to go to whichever home, and why? If it was her home, did she invite him in, or did he suggest/insist/believe it was 'best' if he came into the house and 'looked after her'?
And what happened after the not-quite-sex? Did the person who was the visitor stay the night, or depart? And whose idea was that?

If the friend is a calculating rapist, OP might not have seen any signs of it (because OP would be 'not his type' or someone he has decided it's too high a risk to assault), though it's sometimes possible to pick up cues that a man has no respect for women, doesn't believe in women's sexual autonomy, etc, by his general behaviour. If it's not unusual for him to 'pick up' drunk, distressed or volatile women, then this would suggest that he is at least an opportunist, who picks women unlikely to refuse or complain but unlikely to give enthusiastic consent, either.

If he's a bit naive and has a view of himself as a noble righteous warrior type, he might well have thought the woman was willing to make out or give him a handjob or whatever. It's not completely impossible that she's a drama llama and/or has some issues that she's taking out on him because he's the nearest.

I'd also wonder how come they swapped phone numbers...

It's not true that if they were both drunk it's ok. If the friend was drunk but the other woman lost consciousness at any point for eg then his drunkenness wouldn't mean he had no responsibility for attacking her. Also he is likely the stronger party if any force was involved.
The op will never know what has gone on. Even if he's guilty he will likely get off. The fact she knows him well and thinks sexual assault is the kind of thing he may well do makes me wonder why they are friends at all.

VERY difficult situation. I’d support your friend until you have more information though, 100%

My husband was initially a one night stand we were both drunk not incapable but we were both drunk he was also a stranger although I was friends with his sister did he take advantage of me or me him I don't think so , I have also had one night stands in my single years that were regrettable in that I wouldn't have done it sober none of them rape though .

Shatnerswig because in some people's experience even a sober one night stand can result in a false accusation of rape - ego don't have sex with someone you don't know. That said, when divorcing wives come up with false accusations and its a man's responsibility to be sure if consent all the time what's he to do? I even read recently the suggestion that if a woman changes her mind during sex and doesn't communicate that, the man is still guilty of rape. I suppose some people expect men to be psychic now? And 2-year-old boys are being reported for sexual assaults as reported in the Metro this week. Who would be male these days with that all going on?

Megs Yes, but as the majority of rapes and sexual assaults against women are committed by people the victim knows.... It's a total minefield, isn't it? But I can't see many people choosing not to have a one night stand coz their mum told them not to somehow! Male or female. Presumably if Elton had daughters she'd give them the exact same message she's giving her sons?

Instead of drunk women being seen as fair game, teach boys not to get drunk themselves and not to have sex with drunk women. (Even tipsy is too drunk imo if a girl has no experience of drinking.)

Both men and women are perfectly entitled to get drunk if they want to. If you want to teach boys not to get drunk and have sex with drunk women the opposite applies - teach girls not to get drunk and have sex with drunk men.

I’m not quite sure why that’s from a man’s point of view...? Most of these things would be true from a women’s point of view as well.

Pregnancy is a risk many women are willing to take because they have the option of abortion. If you're male, once contraception fails any decision is taken out of your hands so if you're not prepared for the risk you might have a baby with someone, bring that child up with them and hand over a large wedge of your pay packet then don't shag 'em. You get loads of women on here complaining about men who don't pay or don't see their kids. If they're not prepared to do that then they shouldn't shag.

Allegations are mainly a male risk. People say to girls don't walk through dark areas or isolated areas. So we should say to boys that they should be careful about putting themselves in positions where allegations can occur. The added bonus to that is that if they do that they won't rape anyone either!

So help drunk girls get taxis home instead of shagging them, get to know women and respect them rather than expecting them to fuck you on a first date. Just basically respect them and yourself. I don't see anything wrong with that?

Presumably if Elton had daughters she'd give them the exact same message she's giving her sons?

Yes, Shatners, she probably would. Girls are told all the time to watch out for getting drunk or they might get raped and it will all be their fault.

Girls who have been raped, who happen to have been drunk at the time, are seen to have invited what happened to or deserved it.

Alleged rapists of girls who were drunk, (in the unlikely event that they are prosecuted), are usually acquitted.