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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To not automatically support my male friend (potentially triggering!)

383 replies

User14356 · 10/01/2018 02:21

Agh this is keeping me up tonight, sorry if it’s a bit rambly

My very close, male friend (totally platonic) picked up a woman last weekend at a club. I had left earlier in the night, from what I was told, they were drunk, she had a screaming argument with her friend and then he took her home. Things were done but they didn’t have full sex.

Cut to today and I get a worried message from my male friend saying he has been contacted by this girl saying he took advantage, he is a sex offender and that she’s going to go to the police. This text message was sent at 4am and badly spelled so the assumption is that she was drunk.

I want to believe my friend, but I’m now massively morally split, between not wanting to call this girl a liar, but then not being there for him if the accusations are blown out or false. For now, I’ve been supportive. Is there any way to manage this situation without taking sides- AIBU to have doubts about my friend?

OP posts:
crunchymint · 10/01/2018 09:44

Except false allegations are rare. All the research says that. And even the OP is not sure he is innocent - she KNOWS him and she thinks it is a possibility.

MuseumOfCurry · 10/01/2018 09:44

I would think he is guilty. Balance of probability. No one ever wants to believe that someone they care about is a rapist.

Wowsa.

crunchymint · 10/01/2018 09:45

Anyway, he will get off. There are very few prosecutions.

weedoogie · 10/01/2018 09:45

The assumption that drunk women can't consent but drunk men can is logically and morally repugnant. It infantilises women and pathologises men.

Even the taking home part sounds sexist when analysed. If two adults get pissed and head to a location together, why is it the man doing the taking? It makes women automatically passive.

I had many one night stands in my youth and I wasn't sober for any of them. Thats pretty much the nature of one night stands.

It's worrying to me that men are supposed to be fully aware and responsible when drunk but women aren't. That's treating women like children

This ^

Nobody kows what happened that night apart from the two of them (and even they may not have accurate recollection). People often make decisions when drunk that they would not when sober. They are still responsible for those decisions and regretting them doesn't transfer responsibility to someone else.

You know your friend (and presumably think he's a nice guy) and you don't know the woman at all; not her character, her situation, the advice she gets from her friends etc. I would support my friend until or unless you learn something that shows beyond reasonable doubt that he's knowingly taken advantage and coerced her in some way.

I bet he regrets making the decision to make out with her too....

MuseumOfCurry · 10/01/2018 09:47

Except false allegations are rare. All the research says that. And even the OP is not sure he is innocent - she KNOWS him and she thinks it is a possibility.

Where does she say it's a possibility? She says she doesn't want to call his accuser a liar.

bigsighall · 10/01/2018 09:48

My friend got accused of rape. I supported him. It went to court. He got found innocent after evidence on her phone came to light that wasn’t discovered until late on. It wrecked him and he needed his friends.

Idontdowindows · 10/01/2018 09:49

There is no assumption that drunk women can't consent.

Drunk PEOPLE can't consent.

Men are just as entitled to claim sexual assault if they believe that consent was not given or they were incapable of consent at the time of the activity!

It is indicative of the majority of perpetrators that it is very rarely the man who claims assault or rape, it does not mean only women are seen as being unable to consent when drunk!

lottiegarbanzo · 10/01/2018 09:50

You don't have to call or view her as a liar. It's two different interpretations of the same events, surely?

Sounds like she made the accusation, to him, when drunk. That is very different from making it, sober, to the police. Your friend should of course ignore her drunk text and wait and see whether the police get in touch.

In the meantime, writing down his version of events - perhaps dating and getting a friend to 'witness his signature' (just that he signed on that date, not the content), might be a good idea?

From what you've written, 'he gave her a lift home' would have been a nice and decent thing to do. 'Picked her up. Took her home, then things happened' does not sound so helpful, decent or, well, gentlemanly.

Personally, I would ask him whether he and this woman had interacted earlier in the evening, or whether all interaction between them had followed after her row with her friend. If the latter, it would seem reasonable to ask him whether he feels he took advantage of her emotional, drunken state. Comforting a friend in these circs is one thing. 'Getting to know' someone who is already upset does raise a question of taking advantage, or at least of misjudgement. But, who knows how it actually occurred, except them, which is why I say ask him about it, rather than assume.

FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 09:51

As long as your friend didn’t do something egregious (well, maybe even then), stays calm and gets legal advicr counsel? He most likely won’t be sentenced. Won’t even be charged, tbh. Because it’s incredibly difficult for victims to get justice in our legal system. If she is indeed a victim.

However, your friend has not been accused yet. He received one drunken text.

Which is why I currently would indeed feel no need to take her side. But I’d keep an open mind and might change my opinion (even if he wasn’t convicted. Because whilst I do believe in dubio pro reo... that’s about being sentenced. Not about being actually innocent.)

CollyWombles · 10/01/2018 09:52

The woman in question herself has accused him of taking advantage. This would suggest (assuming of course that she is telling the truth) that she herself was vulnerable and in no fit state to be consenting to anything. The man in question has not said anything about being in a position of consent himself. Therefore we can only go on the information given by the OP which to all extents and purposes does indicate the woman was in a vulnerable position.

FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 09:52

*in ‘our legal system’

Well, any modern (and obviously also ancient) legal system.

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2018 10:00

I just came on to say what CollyWombles said. The vulnerable one is the one who feels they were taken advantage of. And false allegations are very rare.

maddnessintheroost · 10/01/2018 10:00

You were not there and cannot judge but you can be supportive of your friend.

MuseumOfCurry · 10/01/2018 10:02

Why even bother with a trial, then?

Balance of probability and all that.

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2018 10:17

Well, it probably wouldn’t go to trial would it? On the basis of one text message? And even if it did, we know she was drunk. She might even have been wearing revealing clothing and have enjoyed sex with strangers in the past. She might have texts or Facebook messages saying she enjoyed drunk sex with strangers. These are all points used to get men off sexual assault charges in the past.

Is your friend very rich and easily blackmail-able OP? If not, how would she benefit by making a false allegation?

Jux · 10/01/2018 10:23

He could text back that he was about to say the same to her. He was drunk and she took advantage of him.

On the whole, I'd believe my friend, whichever one that was.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 10/01/2018 10:24

I would think he is guilty. Balance of probability. No one ever wants to believe that someone they care about is a rapist.

What a good friend you are.

OP, I wouldn't call her a liar but, if it was a friend that I knew well and cared about, I would support him.

ShatnersWig · 10/01/2018 10:27

Museum Quite. And there have been at least two cases in the last couple of weeks of accusations that went to court, lives completely torn upside down, where because of bloody good investigative work by a defence barrister getting hold of phone records that the Police DECLINED to pass on to the accused's solicitor, the case was thrown out. Because text messages retrieved from those phone records proved conclusively that sex had been consensual. No doubt whatsoever.

I too have known someone who was totally destroyed by a false allegation that fortunately was wiped out in court thanks to CCTV footage. But mud sticks in these cases. Absolutely tore him and his family apart.

We keep hearing false allegations are very rare. Clearly, there are far, far, far more rapes and assaults than false allegations. But they do happen and we seem to be hearing more of them and they do seem to be conclusively proven to be false, not thrown out due to lack of evidence and suspicion remaining.

Every time there is a thread of this ilk, I find myself hoping that I or anyone I know ever finds themselves in courts with several Mumsnetters in the jury because there is very definitely an element of people who work on the "no smoke without fire" basis regardless of any evidence. It's quite scary. As are a very few of the comments on this thread.

FreddieClaryHorshieLion · 10/01/2018 10:27

He could text back that he was about to say the same to her.

No. He should take this seriously and go to a solicitor.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/01/2018 10:33

Would agree with many others

You dont have to take sides at the moment

swingingSixties · 10/01/2018 10:38

crunchymint

Of course it's a possibility - it certainly isn't a probability though. There's a chance DH isn't in surgery as he told me but is pillaging and murdering as I type.

"There are very few prosecutions."

Do you mean prosecutions or convictions? Both are in line with other crimes such as assault or robbery. The problem with rape as a crime is that frequently the accused doesn't argue that sex took place simply if it was criminal. This is unlike most other crimes and very easily explains any slight anomalies which do exist in the justice system. It isn't patriarchal society and we aren't reclaiming points for women by lowering our burden of proof because "probably" if a man is accused of rape then he's guilty.

lottiegarbanzo · 10/01/2018 10:41

Btw, did the row with her friend occur because the two of them were supposed to travel home together but this woman had decided to go home with your friend, so her female friend was upset at being left to travel home alone?

That's just one of so many question you could ask. Mainly, I think the thing to do is talk to him, ask questions and listen. Then, after you've followed up all your doubts with questions, you'll be in a good position to form your opinion.

At this point, by all means keep an open mind - no-one thinks their friend or relative is a sex offender. Many people think sex-offenders are inherently bad and different, so can be spotted a mile off - and people do misjudge things too.

Btw ShatnersWig I don't think that's what happened with those recent cases. I think evidence came to light of enthusiastic interest in sex with the accused on some occasions. This was considered to weaken the prosecution case that sex on other occasions might not have been consensual, to the extent that a case would not have been expected to stand up in court. That does not mean sex was consensual on every occasion. It does not mean those men were innocent.

LagunaBubbles · 10/01/2018 10:46

I would think he is guilty. Balance of probability. No one ever wants to believe that someone they care about is a rapist.

OMG what a leap. Hes a man. Must be guilty. Hmm

Isetan · 10/01/2018 10:47

If he’s old enough to shag a woman while under the influence, he’s old enough to deal with the shit that may come with it. Don’t get involved, you weren’t there.

Taylor22 · 10/01/2018 10:48

If he’s old enough to shag a woman while under the influence, he’s old enough to deal with the shit that may come with it. Don’t get involved, you weren’t there.

Same applies to her then.