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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we should all just pay 1-2% income tax to help fix the nhs

416 replies

Ieatcake · 08/01/2018 07:17

Lots of health professionals are saying it's like a third world country. We need more beds and more money for socialcare. Not many would even notice a tiny tax rise and it would help fix it ASAP.

OP posts:
Rebeccaslicker · 10/01/2018 12:12

And imagine the impact on NHS waiting times if all the private patients suddenly had to join NHS lists - that wouldn't be good.

Hillingdon · 10/01/2018 12:33

Rebecca is right. I am tired of hearing people bleat that they will not go to a GP if they had to pay so therefore its free. We could use the same argument regarding food, heating etc.

There is less and less a sense of personal responsibility as I have got older. Eat what you like, smoke, drink etc and 'someone' will pick up the bill when you get sick. Don't turn up to a GP appointment and who cares, certainly not you as no one is going to chase you for any payment.

A friend of mine a few years ago worked at a large local authority helping people who were getting into debt whilst on benefits. She lasted 6 months.

She was shocked at what people thought their entitlement was, latest phones otherwise people would laugh at them, branded trainers for their kids because they wouldn't wear anything else for fear of being bullied. The thing that really shone through was their complete lack of personal responsibility for their lives.

Last year I took my DS to hospital. There was a chap on the ward with his daughter and she had direct access to the ward for presumably health reasons. They told him to dose her with Calpol and he stated he didn't have any. They found him some and as I was leaving there he was by the front door smoking and swearing down a mobile to god knows who. It was raining and his 4 year daughter was just standing their getting soaked.

And who says the elderly wont/shouldn't pay to see a GP? Not all of them worked their whole lives. In fact they were often of the generation that gave up work when married or had part time work. They really haven't funded all of this care and being a home owner I don't see why I shouldn't have to sell my house eventually if I need care myself.

PS 100% right Rebecca - most people claim to want to pay more tax but don't do anything about it. Its leftie nonsense.

I also for 10 years was a supplier to the NHS. The waste and incompetence is truly shocking.

makeourfuture · 10/01/2018 12:59

There is less and less a sense of personal responsibility as I have got older.

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

― Socrates

makeourfuture · 10/01/2018 13:03

So they say that they would pay more tax, but they don't? Hot air, sorry. Anyone can talk and campaign and vote labour. It doesn't actually mean they are doing anything practical.

I think voting is seen as practical. Isn't it?

Rebeccaslicker · 10/01/2018 13:06

In the context of saving the NHS? I think the last 40 years demonstrate that, whichever party one has voted/votes for, it has absolutely no practical benefit when it comes to the NHS!!

makeourfuture · 10/01/2018 13:09

In the context of saving the NHS? I think the last 40 years demonstrate that, whichever party one has voted/votes for, it has absolutely no practical benefit when it comes to the NHS!!

Well yes the solid run of Conservative Governments has taken a terrible toll.

On that we agree.

SusannahL · 10/01/2018 13:14

A far better idea would be to divert a large chunk of the hideously bloated foreign aid budget into the NHS rather than to these corrupt foreign despots.

Rebeccaslicker · 10/01/2018 13:41

Oh come on. There's plenty of info out there about Blair and brown and their PFI disasters. Not even you can believe the NHS is purely due to the tories!

Hillingdon · 10/01/2018 14:49

Make - please speak for yourself. You might think if Labour were in place none of this would happen but you have no idea whether that is true or not. Corbyn is a protestor and doesn't have any ideas himself apart from spend, spend, spend.

As I mentioned before the NHS is a monster. Throwing money will not resolve without some re-organisation. Someone needs to be brave enough to start to think out of the box. A Royal Commission perhaps with all parties could be a start.

perfectstorm · 10/01/2018 14:52

So they say that they would pay more tax, but they don't? Hot air, sorry. Anyone can talk and campaign and vote labour. It doesn't actually mean they are doing anything practical.

Perhaps next time they raise it, you could mention it to them, as many people don't actually realise you can volunteer to pay more tax? Some of them might think it's a great idea.

I suggest you stop and actually consider what you just typed. I mean, I know it's a really common soundbite amongst Conservatives, but that's the problem; it's said between a bunch of people whose world-views it supports, and hence the fact that it's actually quite mesmerisingly stupid is never noticed. Think. Engage your brain. It's idiotic, that statement.

I assume you are aware that the government of the day determines spending priorities. This government have prioritised things such as tax cuts for higher earners, and implementing Universal Credit (at 16 billion and counting, and it's been horrendous for those affected) and spending a lot more on assessing disabled people for work than is saved by denying them benefits. I could go on. The current administration believe in rolling back the state as far as possible, and cutting state provision for the poorest wherever possible. So what on earth is the point in claiming that voluntarily donating tax would change that? You know as well as I do that it's utter bullshit. Paying tax voluntarily, without changing the administration, isn't going to achieve what those who do believe in those things want. It will just enable the government to spend more on tax cuts, and to fund yet more extravagant schemes facilitating ideologically-driven support-denial. How can you argue that this is more effective than working for an administration who would levy more tax, but spend it on their preferred priorities? Confused

To argue that people who are intentionally supporting a party who will levy higher taxes against them personally so they can help fund more for the worst off "aren't doing anything practical" is just silly. They are doing what they can to effect actual change, despite such change being against their own financial interests. And let's face it, if it were so impractical you would not vote Conservative, would you? And yet, something tells me that you do.

It's a whataboutery straw man aimed at undermining the positions of those who disagree with the greed-is-good, I'm alright Jack mentality. I mean, I get that attack is the best form of defence, but that one's shooting blanks.

But in fact, i think you've described exactly the sort of people I meant. Your friends aren't really talking about sacrificing 90% of their top whack, are they? They're talking about a few more % for them, whilst expecting the government to go after people like Philip green and the magic circle lawyers and bankers you refer to.

If their top whack were everything over a mill a year, I imagine they'd think 90% was okay. I mean, I appreciate the struggle is real, but I think they would just about keep the wolf from the door. As it is, they're talking about sacrificing income that may be discretionary, but would most certainly be noticed in a way I don't think a slight increase at the top levels would be. You notice a loss of income more, the less you have to start with. That's just common sense. And sure, most of the people I'm thinking about fall into the very highest tax bracket, but only just. To you, that's not high-earning. To most of the country, it's four or five times what they earn. And believe me, low earners work bloody hard for their wages, too. They just have to contend with the risk of threatened homelessness and the need to turn to food banks, on top.

And I'm sorry: just to clarify - you don't believe Philip Greene should pay more in tax than he currently does? Are you serious? Yes, of course he should pay tax at a sensible level. I can't believe anyone argues differently about a case as extreme as his.

Basic fact is, this is a moral issue. Is it right that some people are sleeping on streets, and families are in awful B&Bs, because in-work benefit levels don't cover rents, even for many working people now? Is it right that we have an NHS falling apart at the seams, and that we spend less than equivalently rich nations do on that service? And is it right that someone in the ranks of the 0.1% should be expected to contribute more from the very highest end of their salary, to change that, and to make the lives of the poorest less unstable, and to improve the health service for everyone? You clearly think not. I disagree. I think of people who have so little and are barely coping, and I think of the way we as a family are able to pay for private provision for our child. So many people I meet can't do that. I know some mothers who skip meals, because their children can't handle childcare either, and disability is expensive, and their partners are on minimum wage. The idea they could fund a private physio or art therapist or tutor on top is just laughable. We can, thank God. But it shouldn't be down to how rich a parent is, to meet such basic needs. Yet these days, it is.

I have to wonder: how many people in work, but on very low incomes, do you actually know? Because I am going to do you the favour of assuming that you don't. That their situations aren't real to you. I think your views might change, if you did.

perfectstorm · 10/01/2018 14:55

As I mentioned before the NHS is a monster. Throwing money will not resolve without some re-organisation. Someone needs to be brave enough to start to think out of the box. A Royal Commission perhaps with all parties could be a start.

I agree with that. I should say, again, that independent international bodies say the NHS is the most efficient system in the world. But it's still got all manner of flaws, and it has been ineffectively tinkered with since inception in a piecemeal manner. To remove politics and try to see where it could be improved for all our sakes, without it being used as a political totem, is a really good idea. I'd hope everyone could support that.

perfectstorm · 10/01/2018 15:01

There's plenty of info out there about Blair and brown and their PFI disasters.

Yep. I mean, obviously PFI was a Tory creation to begin with, but Labour saw a way they could manage to fund the welfare state without raising taxes, and sidestepped the fact that it would become increasingly and horrifically expensive as the years went by. Thinking a national spending spree should be funded on the never-never is painfully awful.

Having said that, it's not as awful as presiding over a system where people lose all benefits because they don't know how the internet works, and don't have any way to learn, and benefits staffers have targets to hit. And yes, sanctions have occurred on that ground. The CAB issued advice on it.

Rebeccaslicker · 10/01/2018 15:16

Ah ok. So your "friends" willingly paid voluntary tax under the last labour government then? Because otherwise you just wasted minutes of your life typing out a load of excuses.

It's very easy to sit around a left wing table drinking socialist champagne and eating ethically sourced lentil stew and talking about what should happen. It's much harder to put it into actual practice yourself.

No, I certainly never said that Philip Green et al shouldn't pay more tax. Where on earth did you get that from?! I simply said, the kind of people who say, "well, we're high earners, and we think everyone should pay more tax" usually mean that sure, they would pay a bit more - but they still envisage the bulk of those additional taxes coming from someone else. I see nothing in what you've said to persuade me differently!

I also didn't say that I wouldn't pay more tax. You really have assumed an awful lot from just one little post. In fact, i said upthread that I pay privately for all my family's healthcare so as not to use the NHS (that's an actual practical contribution right there!) but that I would still happily pay more tax for it IF I thought it would go on the right things because it's so important for society.

Isn't that precisely what you've said about your own friends and a Tory government tax gift?!

Kursk · 10/01/2018 15:16

There is less and less a sense of personal responsibility

Agree people need to take care of themselves and not rely on the government. I would rather pay no tax at all and have the extra money to look after my families wellbeing.

Rebeccaslicker · 10/01/2018 15:17

(Sorry ignore the quotation marks on friends. I meant to quote you and then deleted it!)

makeourfuture · 10/01/2018 15:34

I simply said, the kind of people who say, "well, we're high earners, and we think everyone should pay more tax" usually mean that sure, they would pay a bit more - but they still envisage the bulk of those additional taxes coming from someone else.

I am not sure where this comes from - I mean is this how you see things? That people who hold views that are left of centre are swilling champagne? That they have these little parties where they talk about stuff from the lifestyle section of the Guardian?

I think that view is skewed a bit.

shhhfastasleep · 10/01/2018 15:50

Controversial view here but I'm coming round to the idea that anyone not receiving benefit or over 18 should pay e.g £15 to access GP . Maternity care should still be free.

perfectstorm · 10/01/2018 15:56

I also didn't say that I wouldn't pay more tax. You really have assumed an awful lot from just one little post. In fact, i said upthread that I pay privately for all my family's healthcare so as not to use the NHS (that's an actual practical contribution right there!) but that I would still happily pay more tax for it IF I thought it would go on the right things because it's so important for society.

I apologise; I missed that. I know people (who personally I'm really fond of) who genuinely don't see why they should pay, and it's because they simply don't know anyone who is really struggling. It can change perspective markedly. It wasn't fair to lump you in there, especially as pentup polite frustration from nodding and smiling when people I've known forever say things that seem so clearly idiotic was sent your way!

One friend did actually pay a direct debit to the local hospital and to SureStart, when he lived in this country. He lives in the States now and I know they do, again, donate very generously to charities benefiting low income families there. He was wary of PFI, so wanted to donate directly to the local Trust, and I saw why. It made sense. Career stage means that most people have only just started earning serious money in the past 5 or 6 years, though. It's an interesting point, on whether they would pay more if they supported the administration. In all honesty I suspect it will be a moot point; if Brexit hits as badly as seems probable, then we are all going to have to be paying very much more tax in future, irrespective. And many who have the choice won't stay here.

I think the suggestion of a properly, independently run full audit and assessment of the NHS, and a proposal to reform it in a joined up and non-partisan way is a good one. But it really isn't as inefficient as people keep claiming. On balance, it's better than most large systems. That doesn't mean it can't be improved. It just means we have better starting material than is often appreciated.

Rebeccaslicker · 10/01/2018 15:56

Ah well, I wouldn't expect a bot to be programmed to understand tongue in cheek Wink

But yes, it's a very common soundbite amongst some people I have come across, usually on Facebook or similar. If you drill down, they are almost invariably envisaging a small increase of a couple of % for themselves. Then if you point out that it wouldn't really make that much difference to the economy, they get defensive and bluster instead about the super rich and how they all evade tax and how the government should make it all illegal immediately.

Justanotherlurker · 10/01/2018 15:57

I think that view is skewed a bit.

You have a very skewed view of anyone who is right of centre as well.

Having said that, it's not as awful as presiding over a system where people lose all benefits because they don't know how the internet works, and don't have any way to learn, and benefits staffers have targets to hit. And yes, sanctions have occurred on that ground. The CAB issued advice on it.

Well I suppose then we can thank Labour for the introduction of sanctions, Labour ran away with the Tory PFI, Tory have been heavy handed with Labours introduction, or is this where we get into the Not true labour rhetoric?

I agree with Rebecca, there is a lot of virtue signalling about people wanting to pay more tax, as the assumption is always that the burden will fall heavily elsewhere. Pretty much the same as those who advocate socialism they don't picture themselves as a factory worker but in the upper echelons.

The biggest indicator of this virtue signalling re tax was in the last GE when JC was promoting the idea of raising tax on £80K earners (which would effect me personally), all of a sudden £80K was considered too low an income, MN was full of people who suddenly forgot their principals when previously (in some cases even the day before) had happily posted that they would be more than willing to pay more tax until it looked inevitable that they should.

Rebeccaslicker · 10/01/2018 15:57

Ah no, perfect - I'd have even harsher words for people who don't see why they should pay at all! Your friend who donated to the hospital trust sounds brilliant.

Rebeccaslicker · 10/01/2018 15:58

I don't think anyone would deny that people like Philip green should be paying more. What we all disagree on, politicians and mumsnet posters alike, is how to go about getting it out of them!

BigBaboonBum · 10/01/2018 16:00

The money is there for the NHS, but Tories don’t prioritise it because that doesn’t benefit them, they also help rather than hinder tax evasion and thus enable less money to be put into us poor sods

perfectstorm · 10/01/2018 16:06

I think we can agree on two things: NHS reform should involve a commission, truly independent, and staffed by experts in all relevant fields, with the report openly published, and if it were done that way, people would be a lot happier to invest

and,

politicans from both parties are fundamentally disinterested in the long term impacts of their policies, because they won't be there to deal with the consequences. And that is a huge problem, given the scope of their powers.

Justanotherlurker · 10/01/2018 16:06

I think the suggestion of a properly, independently run full audit and assessment of the NHS, and a proposal to reform it in a joined up and non-partisan way is a good one. But it really isn't as inefficient as people keep claiming. On balance, it's better than most large systems. That doesn't mean it can't be improved. It just means we have better starting material than is often appreciated.

I agree with this, but I don't agree with the inefficiency. There has been calls of its monolith inefficient status for decades, there is a reason why Labour flooded it with middle managers after all, the problem is that the "Envy of the world" (which it really isn't) has become such a sacred cow that any talk of reform is met (as is on this thread) making assumptions that we will be going down the US route.