To wonder if I’m just old and possibly on the wrong side of history

[bambambini]

I do wonder if we are possibly seeing the start of a huge shift in society and how people are generally perceived. Many of our young seem to want the future to be different from what we've always had - man/woman, male/female - the binary i guess.

Maybe the future will be where everyone is non binary, where all divisions as we inderstand them are broken down. So you won’t be able to tell for sure what sex anyone is, what body parts they have etc.

I’m critical of the current identity politics debate but that doesn’t mean to say I’m right. Maybe I’m struggling with getting my head around it and accepting it because I’m much older and grew up in different times.

We’ve already seen a huge change in social norms with women getting the vote, the break down of racial segregation, legalisation of homosexuality etc. Maybe identity politics is the natural progression.

Now I know you're not accidentally ignorant, but just being goady silent.

Silently

oops, mispelling
ï not ä

and now those crimes committed by men are being reported as female crime Silently

With 2 to 3 women killed by men each week why are you pushing for mixed sex everything?

and again
think that's my cue to bow out

Even if there were seventy bajillion trans threads on fwr that day, you do realise that the issue with current trans orthodoxy and law changes is the potential for violent males to take advantage? Thus, there cannot have possibly not been a single mention of male violence, can there...

Silently how will we measure the gender pay gap in the future? Or crime stats?

That's good to hear. Some I feel have their own agenda though, I get the impression of their disdain towards other women.

Silently, why don’t you go and post a thread about those issues on the feminism board then?

Because it's not a feminist space. It's a trans bashing space. There are plenty of places in thr internet where I can discuss feminist issues with feminists, some of them gender critical but they can see further than their gender critical views and we can find common ground.

To be honest, I'm mostly bored with this argument, it's not central to my feminism or my life, there is no development of ideas, no sharing of real information and no attempt at finding a solution. I have no desire to argue with people who are afraid of a bogeyman to the exclusion of all else. It's small minded and just goes around in circles.

Fortunately, no one on the feminist board has any experience of real demonstration or political discord, their views are minority and likely to stay that way. They simply rant on MN.

Silentlyscreaming - you haven't addressed my point, maybe its society and social media that is making children obsessed with a certain representation of gender/sex that is making children feel this way.

I just feel very sad that men have to mutilate themselves (either chemically or surgically) for them to lead the life they would like to lead.

I think society now is very accepting of very effeminate men (like my brother) or butch women. It really doesn't matter in a lot of locations who or what you are, but I really think that the obsession with social media and the "perfect life" doesn't help.

*and now those crimes committed by men are being reported as female crime Silently

With 2 to 3 women killed by men each week why are you pushing for mixed sex everything?*

This is a prime example, 'never mind the murder, someone might be trans'. Fucking madness.

"Fortunately, no one on the feminist board has any experience of real demonstration or political discord, their views are minority and likely to stay that way. They simply rant on MN."

No one ...? Not one, single poster, on the entire of fwr?
That seems a bit of a bonkers statement to make

silently how will women escaping DV be able to access a refuge if they’re open to men? How will rape survivors attend support groups if they are open to men? How will women be treated in hospital if mixed sex wards are brought back by stealth? How will we close the sex based pay gap if men in senior or high earning roles can declare themselves women and therefore the gap seems to close? Why would maternity continue to be a protected characteristic if men (trans men) can get pregnant too? How will we encourage girls and women to pariticipate in sport if they have to compete against men, and shower with male people afterwards?

The redefinition of “Woman”to mean “a feeling in a man’s head” is (I will believe) the single biggest threat to women’s rights in the U.K. because it undermines everything else.

👆

you haven't addressed my point, maybe its society and social media that is making children obsessed with a certain representation of gender/sex that is making children feel this way.

Well, if this were the case, transsexality would be a recent phenomenon and it's not.

Don't be silly, silently, how can you possibly know the life experiences or activities of posters? What a daft comment

In answer to some of your earlier points, everyone can sympathise with feeling dysphoric about pubertal bodies. But the proposed law will remove access to psych and clinical care from distressed children and adults. It will say that dysphoria is not a characteristic of gender identity which is not in congruence with birth sex

Can't remember who but someone earlier said that in future sex won't mean egg meets sperm. Incorrect. In ivf that is exactly how meiosis occurs, leading to embryo formation. There's no escaping biology, folks

There is a thread about women directly effected by trans identifying males, not the boogy man, men that they know. Don't dismiss women's voices, their lived experience.

escaping DV be able to access a refuge if they’re open to men? How will rape survivors attend support groups if they are open to men? How will women be treated in hospital if mixed sex wards are brought back by stealth? How will we close the sex based pay gap if men in senior or high earning roles can declare themselves women and therefore the gap seems to close? Why would maternity continue to be a protected characteristic if men (trans men) can get pregnant too? How will we encourage girls and women to pariticipate in sport if they have to compete against men, and shower with male people afterwards?

You seem to be implying that we've gone from having no trans women and some big door is about to be opened and they will all come flooding in. We have trans women now and still manage to provide (inadequate) facilities for women escaping domestic violence.

Rape survivors currently attend support groups alongside transwomen.

Mix sex wards are already a reality and have nothing to do with transwomen, they are a result of funding cuts.

There simply aren't enough transwomen in senior roles to skew pay stats.

I don't have bloody clue what we are going to do about sports but I do know that it's not a problem that anyone is actively looking for a solution to because they are all too busy going 'ohhh trans, yuck'.

I think I've had enough with arguing with silent, he's had too much fun already.

There is a thread about women directly effected by trans identifying males, not the boogy man, men that they know. Don't dismiss women's voices, their lived experience.

There could well be but there are so many obvious troll threads about this subject, that no one would ever be able to find it, never mind come up with any kind of solution.

In answer to some of your earlier points, everyone can sympathise with feeling dysphoric about pubertal bodies. But the proposed law will remove access to psych and clinical care from distressed children and adults. It will say that dysphoria is not a characteristic of gender identity which is not in congruence with birth sex

Where have you read that the gender identity clinics will be shut down or that people won't have access to these services?

Silently you are not addressing the point that any male will be able to exploit these new laws to declare themselves as women.

Do you think that will not happen? If not, why not, given the history of males doing anything they can to exploit females for sex?

I may be naive but I honestly think it's a non issue. Most people know that they are men or women, just as they always have. Trans is a very very very tiny minority mental health issue. It's just one getting shouted about a lot at the mo. Life will go on. The vast majority of humans will be men or women - real ones, from birth.

Silently, I'm not surprised you claim to be getting bored here - so far I haven't seen you give a sensible answer to any of the many reasonable questions that have been asked of you, and I conclude that you'll be fucking off from the thread shortly because you know that you don't HAVE any good answers for those questions.

Seeing as nobody else has yet, may I add to the list: if you don't define 'woman' as 'adult human female', what is your definition of 'woman'? To succeed, it must be non-circular and not rely on gender stereotypes.

I think I've had enough with arguing with silent, he's had too much fun already.

That's exactly the response I got on the MN feminist board when they couldn't form a reasoned argument for their bigotry. :-)