To leave the cheap, familiar north for expensive, scary London?

[RedPandaMama]

Am I mad?

DP is 27 and a civil servant, I'm 21 and currently on maternity allowance with no job to go back to, but have a degree and experience in retail, sales, hospitality and admin so surely could get something. We have a 4 month old DD.

He currently works in Manchester and we live in the north west, though he's originally from near Luton. Currently renting a 2 bed terrace in an area we don't like and don't plan to stay in more than 2 years. Plan was to rent (only £575pcm) and save like mad for the 2 years and we would then have a 15% deposit for a nice 3-4 bed semi in a reasonably nice small village about an hour out of Manchester.

However I'm getting cold feet about the north. I've lived here my entire life, went to uni here as well. I'm bored of it. But it is cheap, and my family live here.

His family are near London & Bristol. I love the idea of moving to London and so does he. We've looked at Crystal Palace as a possible area. He'd get a 5k salary bump but our rent cost would almost triple and childcare for DD would be 20% more expensive. Commute costs would actually be about £1000 a year less.

It's London. Amazing and different opportunities for me, new area, new people, a fresh start - I'd love all that. And he'd love to do it to. Free museums and things to see. BUT we would have to forget all ideas of buying a house for the foreseeable future and rent.

I think - we're young, we can afford to live moderately comfortably provided I find a job, loads of opportunities for DD and close to his family (who are much more supportive and lovely than mine!)

Are we mad? Would you do it?

I think you’d be crazy to do it. London is far too expensive; with kids it becomes inconvenient and expensive.
Everywhere is crowded and yo just don’t have enough money. Don’t do it! Also it’s better to stay near your family. Makes such a difference to your life when you have kids

I'd really do your homework about gangs and schools for your DD. I know she's only young but London isn't a great place for raising kids in certain areas. I wouldn't personally go, make sure you research the area properly.

For what it’s worth, I moved to London when I was your age, and stayed for ten years. We had an absolute ball living there, until we had a baby and then it just felt like too much hard work, even though we were lucky enough to find a wonderful child minder ( even then nursery fees were huge! So make sure you have your figures correct because I’ve heard it’s a lot more expensive than in my day..

I used to live in Sydenham SE26 and this has been regenerated quite nicely over the years. It's a stop or two from Crystal Palace but walkable to Crystal Palace park. You can get a decent 2 bed flat there for between £1000-1200pm. I think you would both need to be working though.

We lived in london for ten (i think) years in the south west area. Amazing city. Loved it at weekends. We just took the tube and walked. Saw so much. Lots of history. Friendly people.

However i wasnt london born so we were renting. Every penny we earnt went on rent. We tried to buy by the buy to letters got in before us (another whole post) and seeing our flat we hoped to buy come up to rent was awful. London is out of reach for only the very well paid now. We left and best thing we ever did. Yes i miss the city, the history, the people but i love our own house and exploring another part of the uk.

Id do some research. Can you live outside and commute in. Maybe put a time limit on it as you can move back. I wouldnt live there now with dd due to the cost of childcare and rent. Good luck x

If you do go OP, have a think about doing a nanny share for child care instead of nursery. We lived in West London and our fees with another family (one child per family) worked out slightly cheaper than nursery but gave us a huge amount more flexibility if we were delayed on public transport getting home etc. The boys also had great days out that wouldn't have happened in nursery.

I worked there for over a decade, but always commuted in. It’s heaving with people and the pollution is terrible (so don’t go if you have asthma). Also look at the air quality concerns and their impact on children’s health.

That said, it does offer opportunities for shows, museums etc. BUT - most things cost a lot, and you can only really benefit if you can afford the splash the cash.

Maybe look to move closer but not ‘into’? I’m in the East and it’s affordable with an easy commute for day trips.

I wouldn't do this. It'll just be so hard financially, I wouldn't choose to put myself in that position.

I lived in London in my twenties and enjoyed it - single and carefree, fantastic social life. I'm 40 now, married with 2 dc and living in Sheffield. I think we have a great quality of life. Most of my friends moved out of London when they started a family because of costs.

Op you said that your dp is from Luton but you have also said that family will be close by if you move to Crystal Palace. Luton is not at all close to Crystal Palace, you won’t be popping round for a coffee or be able to get them to look after your baby for half an hour if you need to do something. If you move to south London be realistic and plan to do it on the assumption that you will have no practical family support.

Honestly, have a long think about your quality of life and work/life balance of you moved to London. We live in SE London and I struggled to find a job that would work with nursery hours + commute times and am now earning significantly less than pre-child with virtually nothing left once nursery and bills are paid. I find that after a week of commuting,the last thing I want to do is schlep back in to central London for crowded museums! Housing is expensive as are activities etc. Also look into the availability of childcare - the nursery near our station has a wait list of a year + for a full time place. I have never worked in other English cities but my experience is that London has quite a presentee-ish long hours culture- though that could simply be the sectors I work in. We can't move out of London for the foreseeable future but I often wish we could!

We both grew up in South London and now live near the coast (I moved in the early 90s, DP 5 years ago).

Almost all our friends and family with kids have moved out to beyond the M25. Reasons have varied, but include being able to buy a much bigger house for the same money, better schools, improved air quality, safer for kids to get to places on their own when they're older (one friend decided to move after their 12YO son was mugged for the 3rd time in 6 weeks) and just a better quality of life generally.

The ones that have stayed mostly wish they had or could move away. Their kids are still at home in their 20s because they can't afford to leave.

When we go back, we come home feeling filthy dirty and slightly traumatised by the crowds and noise. I refuse to go on courses that are in London now. I just hate it. DP gets on a crowded train and shakes his head in disbelief that he ever managed to do the daily commute without ending up severely stressed.

However, because we grew up there, we never felt excited by all the stuff we had on our doorstep, we took it for granted. I suppose it's a more tempting prospect when you've never had the opportunity to just pop into the National Gallery in your lunch break and stuff.

To put it into perspective Luton is ten miles further from Crystal Palace than Liverpool is from Manchester and nobody would move to Liverpool saying their Manchester family is close by.

Many people can, and do, raise children in London, including my parents, if you can manage financially, it has s lot to offer.

I’m the other way to what you are proposing. My family is all in the south of England (albeit no longer London) and we’re not far from Leeds. Do not underestimate the benefit of having your family nearby! We travel south to see grandparents every school holiday. It means we rarely have time to see local friends during holidays. Apart from the time and expense of this, it means that our relationship with parents/grandparents is quite artificial because it’s an intense 3 or 4 days at a time, rather than a day here, a coffee there, a bit of babysitting etc. My dc are very aware that their grandparents never come to their school concerts, birthday parties etc.

I can see the lure of London, but with a young family, i’d stay put. It’s hardky like Manchester is the back of beyond!

Try it! You're very young. Give it a go and if you don't like it you can move back

Please don't settle at 21 if it's not what you really want

We've just left London after many years precisely because we had DD! There are amazing things for kids in London - but they are all overcrowded; every borough is over polluted; you have to squeeze into a much smaller house for three times the price; the schools aren't always as good - London is amazing and you're still v young, but I would think carefully about the negatives.

I did the same move a few years ago, albeit as a singleton, and regret it.

I got a £10k (60% ish) salary bump but didn't feel much better off. Even a 1 bed flat is beyond my means £1300 ish is the going rate for somewhere acceptable but not spectacular in Z2/3.

Once the novelty of London wears off you stop going to all the big sites, realise there's no community to speak of (perhaps it's different if you have kids and mummy groups, which I don't) and all you're left with is expense, a long commute and pollution.

Bristol, on the other hand (I know it well), is far nicer, has a community and lots going on. If I were you, I'd move there, not London.

If you want to do it then do it, but I think you'll be financially crippled unless you can both land really good jobs. I like to have a comfortable standard of living so we have recently moved out of commuter land. We are on our second mortgage, earning £75k between us. In London we'd lose most of it just on living, and we wouldn't have a mortgage on anything in a remotely decent area.

I'd think about why you want to go, for a couple of years of the bright city life, or permanently? If the latter, can you ever afford to buy, are you happy to rent forever, will you consider moving out to a Home county and commuting in? I'm an old bore and wanted house/marriage before kids because I get the impression any disposable cash we have if we ever have them, will virtually vanish in an instant. I'm also an avid planner and knowing how expensive London is, I would never have seen it as a viable long term option for us to have the standard of living we enjoy. My brother and SIL live centrally (were paying over £2k rent for a nice flat near Richmond Park). Their lifestyle is comfortable, but they earn over £150k between them.

We thought about leaving London when we had our little one. But decided to move to south London. Life is good. Lots of green spaces. Very baby/kid friendly. Both of us work in London. Cheap and frequent transport links.

Downsides I would say is pollution. But that is true of any big capital city.

On the dirty/crime point of view... There are areas like this, but also many that are not. Do not let a few stories put you off.

So in conclusion... Do it!

Really appreciate all the responses thank you. It's not a decision we've made yet and we are thinking perhaps it's more that we're both just bored of Manchester rather than desperate to move to London.

Bristol could be a possibility and would love to be near SIL and BIL, but would be more complicated as DP would have to change departments and do more training- but it would be doable. Other places we could move to with his job would be Glasgow, Leeds, Newcastle or Dover - of which I've only ever been to Dover to get the ferry so know nothing about!

If you want bright lights, big city (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that) bear in mind you can afford to live much more centrally, and have much more disposable income to actually enjoy life with) in Manchester than you can in London.

"I'd do it in a heartbeat. IF you can afford it. But I love London more than anywhere in the world! Or live within easy reaching distance in the SE. There's always something to do and see and places to explore. Big open green spaces and parks, museums, city life, concerts, shopping, farms and zoos, walks by the river, boat trips, markets to wander, sports in abundance, nightlife and culture, the Southbank, the touristy stuff, canary wharf and the docks, lazy weekends wandering, ahhh I just love it. (CP to Luton only usually takes us about an hour and ten fyi and it's only 45 mins from central on the train)"

Amanduh I live in South Yorkshire. I can get to Sheffield, Leeds and York in under an hour. We have big, open green spaces on our doorstep – I don’t have to travel to find any. We don’t need a park as we have a garden, but all the towns and cities here have them. We have museums, city life, concerts, shopping, farms, a zoo, boat trips, markets, sports, nightlife (not that any of us are bothered about that), opera, ballet etc., etc. all within 30 – 60 minutes of where we live. It isn’t a cultural desert outside of London.

I was born and grew up in Croydon. To get into central London I had a mile walk to the station, 20 minutes on the train and then the underground to get to where I wanted to go. All this took longer and was more expensive than it takes and costs me now to get to a city centre/attraction here.

We also live equidistant in time from 3 international airports, have rail links to anywhere in the country and have outstanding primary schools and good secondary schools on our doorstep. All this at a fraction of the cost of living in London.

I love visiting London, but the lack of green space, the crowds and the polluted air make me feel glad to get home again to our clean country air.

RedPandaMama have you considered moving to another northern city? Leeds is pretty vibrant and offers loads of work opportunities.

Think about the pros and cons. If you stayed, could you find a job easily? Do you have anyone that could help with child care and more importantly, do you think you’d be happy? If you have relatives in or near London, could they help? There’s a lot more opportunity there and it is an amazing place. I’m sure they pay a little better too. Good luck and if possible, take the opportunity! It sounds great 🙂

Prices East of London are considerably cheaper. Great transport links into the City and lots of Open Spaces.

Oh god don’t do it op! We did something similar in our twenties, pre dc. The cost of living is extortionate here. We didn’t really have a choice in the matter, as dh’s job moved to west London, but I was SO excited to move to near London. The thing is that I think if you’re actually in London, it’s fab. But most people I know have had to move out when they have dcs as they simply can’t afford the space in London itself. I only know one couple who’ve made it work and they are very well off. They have a two bed in streatham now, which is lovely, but not exactly central.

We are now way out in the Home Counties and I fecking hate it. If I could live in Bristol, I’d leap at the chance. It’s a really cool city. I used to live in Bath which is like Bristol’s slightly twee auntie. I loved it there too though. Fine to move south, but I personally would recommend against the SE of England unless it’s unavoidable. I’ve been here 6 years btw, so I’m not trying to be unkind.

Do you make the most of what there is in Manchester? When did you last go the the theatre or, say, the Whitworth? (And if you don't, what makes you think you would in London?)

There's a reason why so many people move out of London and near to family when their children reach school age...