To leave the cheap, familiar north for expensive, scary London?

[RedPandaMama]

Am I mad?

DP is 27 and a civil servant, I'm 21 and currently on maternity allowance with no job to go back to, but have a degree and experience in retail, sales, hospitality and admin so surely could get something. We have a 4 month old DD.

He currently works in Manchester and we live in the north west, though he's originally from near Luton. Currently renting a 2 bed terrace in an area we don't like and don't plan to stay in more than 2 years. Plan was to rent (only £575pcm) and save like mad for the 2 years and we would then have a 15% deposit for a nice 3-4 bed semi in a reasonably nice small village about an hour out of Manchester.

However I'm getting cold feet about the north. I've lived here my entire life, went to uni here as well. I'm bored of it. But it is cheap, and my family live here.

His family are near London & Bristol. I love the idea of moving to London and so does he. We've looked at Crystal Palace as a possible area. He'd get a 5k salary bump but our rent cost would almost triple and childcare for DD would be 20% more expensive. Commute costs would actually be about £1000 a year less.

It's London. Amazing and different opportunities for me, new area, new people, a fresh start - I'd love all that. And he'd love to do it to. Free museums and things to see. BUT we would have to forget all ideas of buying a house for the foreseeable future and rent.

I think - we're young, we can afford to live moderately comfortably provided I find a job, loads of opportunities for DD and close to his family (who are much more supportive and lovely than mine!)

Are we mad? Would you do it?

I just did it 6 months ago aged 22, though I’m childless.
I love it, have landed my dream job within 3 months of graduation.
Only thing that’s bad is the air pollution is messing w my eczema and I miss my family, although we own our flat whereas mates pay between £600-£900 a month for renting a room in a shared house of 5-6 people ... do think about that.were zone 2, SW.

As pp said Crystal Palace is quite pricey & gridlocked with traffic the shops are all bit ‘i saw you coming’, good for east London line but the station is a bit of a hike, I would look at Beckenham/Penge/Eden Park or maybe West Wickham all good transport links & lots of things to do.
Good parks & child friendly facilities, also very good shopping/coffee bars/restaurants etc.

Given how young you are I think it might be a good idea to give it a go, you can always come back sooner rather than later if you want to. Long term I would go back North because in London you will probably never be able to buy, and the rental market basically consists of paying a lot for not much and possibly paying for the upheaval or moving often when the landlord decides to try their luck selling or move in themselves...

The opportunities and facilities are great, but since you say you have romanticised it ...there is a lot of public transport available (though often filthy and crowded). The air quality is abysmal. I live in an area of London not bad for air quality and I notice it day and night. You will very probably have to give up ideas of things like separate tumble drier, washer dryer you could get if lucky, probably no garden or outside space, no parking space, lugging pram upstairs to a flat or living or ground floor where you probably won't want to open the windows for security reasons. Nowhere in particular to dry washing or store any utility goods, landlords who are complacent because their are many tenants around and so don't do maintenance. You won't have to make every compromise, but you will have to make many of them.

I am not trying to put you off, just introducing the realities of the rental market here. I actually think if you go and see a few places to get a sense of what you can get you will soon know how you feel, and I genuinely think at your age could be a big adventure. When are you going to take a risk if not now? Look into childcare carefully, it could be difficult especially as one of you would ideally not commute and so would be able to reach the childcare quickly if needed.

I think lots of mumsnetters live round CP if you posted re that area for advice.

There not their!

Go for it. Maybe save up first and buy a place up north and rent it out while you live in London so you have something to come back to.

Raising children in London is amazing. When our kids were small we really were at the science museum every weekend. We've never had a car, just jump on buses or walk everywhere.

BUT we were lucky enough to be in our twenties twenty years ago. When two junior civil servants could buy an ex-council house on the edge of zone 1 with a very affordable mortgage. It's really much tougher now.

It's exciting.

But don't make the mistake of thinking that his family near Luton is anywhere near Crystal Palace. They are honestly not close. About 2 hours driving (not in rush hour), at least the same by train-tube-train

The only thing I would say is that the cheaper areas around Crystal Palace are not that nice (I went to school in Thornton Heath and it was grim), but you can find good places if you look far and wide

I live in CP with kids and love it but I'm in 40s and know younger mates in 20s who were freaked out moving beyond zone 2. It's a fair schlep into town and even further if you go out to the more affordable areas suggested - which would be sensible as CP is steep. Dunno how you'd do it on starter wage with a baby. There's not loads of local childcare options either so that's pricey too. Not saying it's impossible but only do it if you're really feeling compelled to. I'm originally from up north too and it still horrifies me how it costs me the next part of twenty quid just to go out and do nothing, just from a couple of oyster journeys and a drink or two. It's a shit place to be skint.

Luton and a Thameslink commute might make more sense for family support and economies. Not as exciting I know but you'd probably get into town just as often and as easily.

If it's what you want then go for it. But speaking as someone who was born there and lived there until I was 20, I hate the place.
I moved to the north west for uni, fell in love with my uni city, and now it's home. I met my dh here, I'm much happier bringing up my child here, and just life in general here I think is much better. I wouldn't move back to London if someone paid me, but that's as someone who's been there and done it, and couldn't wait to leave.
I guess if you've never lived there it's different.

Do it! London is great for young kids. What have you got to lose? You could always move back by the time she starts reception if you don’t like it.

The pp who suggested buying something up north to rent out, if at all possible, was wise. That way you still have an asset in the north and are not only paying out on rent.

I have more than one friend who had kids your age and moved to London. It was cramped and expensive so they moved to other parts of the country where they could get the bigger house. But then they came back - preferred to live in a smaller place for the better job opportunities and the culture of London.

I’m from London and love it here, but I know many people don’t. I definitely think you should give it a chance though. This is the best time in your life to do it! Crystal Palace is a great place to live. So is Norwood and gipsy hill and other areas nearby.

I would say do it but research carefully if you think you will be needing a primary school. CP & SN have some that need improvement. Also don’t underestimate the value of having family close by.

2nd the poster re “the Heath”.

If it’s what you want then go for it. There are a lot of people who like city life and London especially.

Personally it would be my worst nightmare to live in a city. London with all the dirt, crime, people and expense no thanks!

I don't know if there are enough pros to outweigh the cons. I was already living in London when I had my kids, loved it before they hit school age. As you said so much to see and do and you can do it all off peak. It is a brilliant city for toddlers and preschoolers schoolers. When they hit school age, you are battling with everyone else to go to places like the Natural History Museum on weekends and school holidays.
Private rental you will have no security of tenure.
Having young kids it is a great age to make new friends going to baby groups etc. But your age and education level will make you a bit of an anomaly in London on the mum and baby circuit. Most people move to London for their careers at your age and wait for their 30s/40s till they have kids.
My kids are now 5 & 8 and we moved out of London this year as we were finding it difficult to take advantage of what London has to offer and we had school issues for my oldest. The move has been brilliant for the kids, but at this life stage I have found it difficult. In the new area women at this stage with kids in primary school don't seem to have time for new friends as they have their established groups, work and family commitments.
All my friends that have moved out of London with kids a similar age have found it difficult to make friends, but none of us regret it because our kids love the extra space and freedom they have.

If dp moves his job to London and it doesn't work for you as a family, how easy will it be to move out of London?
You could find yourselves expecting dc2 in a tiny flat up a flight of stairs and longing for a bigger house up North. Or, if you're used to having family close by, the reality of living without a reliable support network for illness, babysitting etc.
Can he get a short term transfer to London for a year to try it?

I'd do it in a heartbeat. IF you can afford it. But I love London more than anywhere in the world! Or live within easy reaching distance in the SE. There's always something to do and see and places to explore. Big open green spaces and parks, museums, city life, concerts, shopping, farms and zoos, walks by the river, boat trips, markets to wander, sports in abundance, nightlife and culture, the southbank, the touristy stuff, canary wharf and the docks, lazy weekends wandering, ahhh I just love it. (CP to Luton only usually takes us about an hour and ten fyi and it's only 45 mins from central on the train)

It would be my idea of hell to move back there: crowds, poor air, rubbish green space (no park, no matter how big or majesterial, compares to your very own private big back garden!), poor public transport or congestion, hideous prices.... but I guess you have to try it if you have a niggle that won’t go.

The reality for me was that I never really ventured out of my borough... it had all the shops i really needed and going out in the evening was much easier (central London is actually pretty dire in terms of going out. Ok you can see a show, go to a club night or book a table at a fancy restaurant if you can afford it but the Night buses and tubes take an age and stop early. IT IS SO jaw dropping my expensive.)

I moved to another southern city after a couple of years and was amazed at how compact it felt; that the shopping was better because I could access the city centre so easily, that I could get out for more green space and fresh air within minutes, that the nightlife was better because all the best clubs and bars were in the same areas and taxis were cheaper.... best of all I had more money!

I think you need to think carefully about what you want; if it’s just a change, why not consider as pp have said, a southern city such as Bath or Bristol?

Rent plus childcare will be very very expensive. If you didn’t have a baby and were heading for a houseshare it would be different.
I love London, have tried living elsewhere and have moved back. The people I work with, with young kids, all live out in Essex or Kent and commute in.

look into it, it might work out for you, but keep in mind many professionals are moving out, because they can't find anywhere to live

If you didn’t already have kids at your age I’d say go for it. As it is, you run a very high risk of struggling financially with poor accomodation and little time to actually enjoy what London has to offer.

London is awesome - Bristol is hardly a substitute!

I didn’t like London as a single person. Too busy and crowded and lonely. For me with a child unless I’d lived there and loved it would be worse. What about spending a week’s holiday down there to see what the reality of it is like. Or maybe just a move up north where you are? I’m in Essex so close to London but love the north but all our family ties are here and we dh is a die hard southerner so no chance of a move.

I moved out of London last month but previously lived in that area (about 1.5 miles from CP) for six years, and with our DD for the last two years.

Childcare costs from £60-£80 daily in CP. On a salary of £22,000(ish) (standard London salary for admin, office, sales if you have a degree) you might clear £200-300/month after travel.

London is brilliant but ridiculously expensive.