to think this is normal, or should I/we interfere more

[ReadyForGoodNews]

My two teenagers, DD15 and DS16 are always, ALWAYS arguing. The whole fucking time. We can't be in the same room all of us together without them either muttering insults to each other or just plain out right shouting.
We're having dinner, they argue about who's eating what, how much the other has had etc. If we're playing a board game, one of them is always making fun of the other, taking it too far and then it all becomes a huge argument.
DS has form for always criticising DD. Things like "oh you're a failure", "you're so dumb", "look at her, she's pure evil", "you'll never get anywhere in life", "You always fail at maths" and then whenever she says something about anything, he will SIGH sarcastically, mutter "ugh, idiot"... etc etc
DD on the other hand, loves interjecting all conversations with something mean about her brother: "no one cares what you think", "who said we want to know your opinion", "you have no friends", "yeah right that's so brilliant, you think you're so great", "yeah we really don't know it was you who finished the cake"
Really NOT NICE!!! And I really hate it!!!
DH can't handle it and when it gets to a certain point, he gets upset and tells them off, to which DS replies with a very infuriating satisfied smile and DD acts like a horrified victim and leaves the room.
I try to ignore until I feel it's going to go too far, and I either change the subject, or say something like "enough, if you won't stop it please leave the table/room until you calm down".
This doesn't change the fact that the same happens every day every time they're in the same room. They used to have an ok relationship, normal sibling stuff.
We try very hard to never take sides. DH thinks we have to come up with more strategies and be more involved in trying to change this. But it just seems impossible to talk about this with them at the moment. Whenever we try, they think we're taking the other one's "side". UGH!!
AIBU in thinking this is normal teenage stuff and they'll grow out of it?

I've had something similar and it became intolerable.

Think carefully about when and where this is happening. Are you regularly having to go upstairs to intervene, or are they performing for your benefit at the table and in the car? Is it worse in front of guests?

Are they bickering over real issues such as the tv, shower, or are they just trading insults to look clever and show off? If it's the latter (it was with mine) just send them upstairs or away every single time. Ground them, No phones or whatever fits.

In a way it doesn't matter what it's about, they're not toddlers and acting that way at mealtimes is completely unacceptable. In fact they're old enough to make their own teas at that age.

Rogue It's for our benefit. It never happens in front of anyone else, so I know they know boundaries and what's acceptable/unacceptable with others. They are both sociable and enjoy the company of relatives and friends. So like I said, this leads me to think it's some annoying form of sibling rivalry for parents attention, but I didn't expect it to resurface at this age, I thought they were too old for it now.
But like you said, they should know not to do it anyway.

sounds like pretty normal siblings who dont like each other. My experience is that you just got to wait until they grow out of it, not much else can be done.

It isn't normal in my house nor in many of the houses my teens visit. And mine don't like being in homes where the siblings fight a lot - it isn't a great atmosphere.

There is a lot else that can be done - you can shut them down every time they start with the "you're an idiot" "you're a failure" and say no she's not and no we don't say those things in this house, stop it. It takes a bit of effort but so does most parenting - fucking exhausting really.

Then I really think you need to change tactic and acknowledge this for what it is. It's covert unpleasant behaviour, it's a way to wind you up and disrespect you while pretending it's about something else.
I'm embarrassed to admit this but mine are still doing this now as young adults. And they're still claiming that he started it or she said that. I'm familiar with the satisfied smile you describe.They've ruined many an occasion with it and I really resent them for it.

I deal with it by not spending time as a family and seeing them on their own.I absolutely won't do Christmas or holidays or family birthdays anymore. I'd come down hard, now. If mealtimes are a problem let them make their own tea and eat away from you. Acknowledge what is happening (disrespect) and punish accordingly.

Ruined.

I’ve got four, 3 of which are particularly prone to bickering in different combinations.
A PP referred to uniting against a common enemy and, this is going to sound weird, but I’ve always found this to work.
If they’re settling in to hardened arguing, I make myself the bad guy.
So, I’ll warn them I’ve had enough of the nastiness and that any more will result in a horrible job/strict sanction for the pair of them. I’ll also act much angrier than I am.

Basically try and get them to unite against you. When you hear them agreeing that you’re crazy/unreasonable/a miserable old cow, then you know you’ve cracked it

Go in hard and early.
I used to hate having all four of them on a long car journey etc.
Now, it’s usually a pleasure.

When you hear them agreeing that you’re crazy/unreasonable/a miserable old cow, then you know you’ve cracked it grin

Are you serious?

The day I hear my children agreeing with each other that I am a miserable old cow is the day I know I have failed as a parent.

Why is it so hard to say to young adults/teens that they must behave and talk like normal young adults - not rude, not horrible, not hurtful not insulting.

I feel very sorry for the poster who has given up on family get togethers because her adult children can't control themselves. I bet you those same adult children control themselves just fine in other adult settings.

I put up with a fair bit from my teens that I wouldn't from anyone else. (just this evening I was so annoyed at my 16 year old but not enough to make a big scene) But there is a line. And the line stops well before telling your sibling she is dumb or a failure or an idiot or someone who has no friends.

Being a parent is harder when they are teens than when they were little. People don't often realise this and while you can't just abandon parenting for the little ones you can for the teens without anyone dying or being physically hurt so it is kind of easier to say "well see how that works out for you".

Personally being at the end of the teen years, I think the parenting you do in those years almost matters more.

Pallisers I think the poster used those words just to make her statement a bit lighthearted. I don't think any of us would put up with insults from our teens. Which was kind of the point of my post, to wonder if it's a phase or if we need a firmer hand/intervention.

We haven't given up on family get togethers, on the contrary we make a point not to let their behaviour dictate what happens in the house. We do take it one day at a time sometimes and sometimes we feel that we're on top of things. It's hard work but no one is abandoning parenting.

Rogue It's covert unpleasant behaviour, it's a way to wind you up and disrespect you while pretending it's about something else
But if this was the case, wouldn't they be acting the same way even when it's just one of them with us?

So, I’ll warn them I’ve had enough of the nastiness and that any more will result in a horrible job/strict sanction for the pair of them. I’ll also act much angrier than I am.

Basically try and get them to unite against you. When you hear them agreeing that you’re crazy/unreasonable/a miserable old cow, then you know you’ve cracked it grin

Op this is what the pp said. Only the grin was lighthearted. I don't offer a horrible job/strict sanction to my teens and I don't want them to unite against me.

And I wasn't talking about you giving up on family get togethers but a pp Rogue who said I deal with it by not spending time as a family and seeing them on their own.I absolutely won't do Christmas or holidays or family birthdays anymore. I'd come down hard, now. If mealtimes are a problem let them make their own tea and eat away from you. Acknowledge what is happening (disrespect) and punish accordingly.

I regard this phase of life as a really important part of child rearing when the behaviours you display and the words you say to your teens/children really matter.

Things like "oh you're a failure", "you're so dumb", "look at her, she's pure evil", "you'll never get anywhere in life", "You always fail at maths" angry and then whenever she says something about anything, he will SIGH sarcastically, mutter "ugh, idiot".

No, this is NOT normal. Your son has been systematically putting your daughter down, and you IGNORE it until YOU & your DH can't cope with it anymore!! What about your daughter? Does he get taught to have respect for his sister? There is NO way I would either of my children talk to each other in that way!

If this was your husband talking to you like this, you would be told he was an emotional abuser, yet people seem to think it's normal sibling stuff.

In fairness, differ if you read the OP completely you will see that the dd gives equally shit responses to her brother.

This isn't a boy/girl issue but more a " what kind of insults a family are prepared to put up with as normal" issue

I was definitely trying to lighten the tone by suggesting my teens would call me a miserable old cow but I do think you need to show them you won’t tolerate this kind of behaviour as soon as it crops up.
It does become a habit and will only escalate.

On a side note, social media, especially online gaming, seems to encourage particularly soul destroying put downs.

I’ve had some success with pointing out that this doesn’t translate to real life and discussions around that theme.
They are still kids and need us to model, explain and, if necessary, enforce appropriate behaviour.

It’s just so much harder when they’re two feet taller than you and think they know everything!

dd gives equally shit responses to her brother.

telling someone that you don't want to know their opinion is NOT the same as being told you are ugly.

"you're so dumb" V "who said we want to know your opinion"
"oh you're a failure" V "you have no friends"
"you'll never get anywhere in life" V ^"it was you who finished the cake"
"look at her, she's pure evil" V "yeah right that's so brilliant, you think you're so great"

"ugh, idiot"
"You always fail at maths"

Nothing alike, at all!

I don't have any advice but I will say the two sets of siblings I grew up with who were particularly bad for arguing with each other as children are both the best of friends with their siblings now they are older.

If you can use the suggestions above - and I think the one basically telling them they are abusing each other and it would count as domestic abuse if with a partner is good as it may shock them a bit. But if you are able to calm it down using various ideas then chances are they don't really hate each other, they've just got into a visious cycle of winding each other up.

Formatting failure, but you get the point.

Make the solution something that will benefit them both that they have to work together on; each day they are like this then you change the wifi password and they collectively have to earn it back by finding something to do together without bickering.

But if this was the case, wouldn't they be acting the same way even when it's just one of them with us?

I don't know Ready. It sounds to me like it's one of two things,either teens performing to get attention and cause drama. Or your son is being incredibly critical of your daughter for whatever reason and has realized he can do this in front of you both with little consequence.

If he is muttering "idiot" whenever she speaks this is really serious and needs stamping on. He's 16 , he knows he would not get away with speaking to anyone else like this. If I was your daughter I would get very fed up with this. I'm not surprised she says things back to him.

I think I would watch very carefully who is doing what and when. I would send him upstairs the moment I heard "idiot" personally. Then again, considering how bad my situation is I am probably not in a position to give advice!

Perhaps consider some family counselling.

Seeing their behaviour through an impartial observer’s eyes may make them realise that it is not ‘normal’ behaviour, and would be considered abuse in any other context.

I feel the same as different

I read most of this thread thinking that I can’t believe most people are saying this is normal. The things your son says to your daughter are absolutely not normal. At all.

He is being absusive towards her and you and your dh are doing nothing about it until YOU don’t like it anymore.

I would absolutely not put up with being verbally and emotionally abused in my own house so I damn well wouldn’t expect my dd to have to put up with it either. Your ds is nearly an adult ffs, when is he going to learn that his behaviour is not acceptable?

Your dd’s insults on the other hand are, although not nice and need to be stopped, not exactly in the same league as being told that she’s a failure, she’s ugly, she’ll never go anywhere in life.

I feel so sorry for your dd.

I just want to be clear that I'm not suggesting anyone else should give up on family time. It's a horrible situation and not one I enjoy or recommend. I really feel it's something I should have dealt with very firmly when they were much younger. For some reason that teen bickering has never stopped and as adults it's completely unacceptable and has become viscious bullying disguised as "banter". Someone always ends up in tears.

I don't refuse family get togethers because of the bickering. Everyone bickers to some extent. I don't do family get togethers because of the lack of respect and the look of triumph when someone gets upset. It's awful. I've warned them for years.

sounds like pretty normal siblings

WTF? How low is your bar set?

This is not acceptable behaviour.

Me and my brother were very like this. 18 months between us and between the ages of 13-16 treat each other terribly.
I think there was a lot of anger, insecurity and jealousy on both our parts and in some ways it becomes a very safe way to express that as your sibling unlike friends can't go anywhere. It was horrible and has definitely cast a shadow over our relationship (although we are also v v different so I'm not sure we would have ever been best friends)
I think lots of talking about it with them individually and together and it's ok to get angry and upset with them..they need to see that it's hurtful for you. I do wish we had resolved it but for us I think there was a lot of complex family dynamics feeding into it which we didn't have the maturity or insight to recognise at that time. For what it's worth despite not being close we do and I'm sure always did love each other very much.

My brother and I would have horrendous fights, sometimes physically!

There were underlying issues with our parents getting divorced / our parents bad behaviour / following their shitty example though - something must be fuelling their behaviour?

Have you tried sitting in a room where you can lock the door and thrashing it out?

I have an 8 year old with special needs. My 14 year old recently started being really critical of him. I have nearly stamped it out but what I thought was going on and turns out I was right. It is that 14 year old is more aware of what others think of him and what others think of him is more important than anything else. He didn't want a brother that was different, he thought he could shock him into being "normal". It was heart breaking for everyone, even his grandparents pulled him aside and spoke to him.
It sounds like your son is doing the same thing to his sister, wanting to change who she is or things he considers imperfect because he thinks she reflects on other's views of him. This needs to be dealt with asap because it will have a massive knock on her self esteem.