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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think you can't tell an 11 month old off?

108 replies

moita · 26/12/2017 18:37

Longtime lurker, first time poster. More than happy to be told YABU as tiredness may have tipped me over the edge.

My just turned 11 month old is a happy, sociable boy but he has a habit of shouting/screaming: mostly this is when he's overtired and needs a nap.

He started doing this over Christmas dinner. I knew it was from overstimulation/excitment. I've tried to keep to his routine over Christmas but things like having lunch later and having people over/new toys have thrown him out.

FIL objected to his shouting - leaned over the table to DS and started calling him a bad baby and bad DS's name. MIL objected but he argued he needs to learn.

I was a bit Shock and tried to explain that DS has no other way to communicate, hence his frustration.

I ended up putting DS down for a nap and he was back to his normal cheerful self after that.

I haven't spoken to DH about it yet but AIBU to think FIL was wrong? I blame myself for not napping DS quicker rather than my baby for being tired!

OP posts:
ThatsWotSheSaid · 27/12/2017 07:37

I think you did the right thing. You tried to ignore it, he may well have stopped, so you could enjoy your meal together. When it became obvious that his screaming was upsetting your family you took him out. 'Bad baby??!!' good job he didn't understand. Looks like you FIL showed his colours just in time for you to cross him of the future babysitter list.

Spikeyball · 27/12/2017 07:46

I suggest you have misunderstood Greenshoots. If your foster child was 2 and didn't understand right from wrong would you think they could never learn.

"children need to learn that they cannot go around "communicating" any way they want."

How does a pre verbal baby communicate?

Greenshoots1 · 27/12/2017 07:54

I suggest you have misunderstood Greenshoots. If your foster child was 2 and didn't understand right from wrong would you think they could never learn.

no, of course I haven't misunderstood, I am highly trined and experienced in this area.

A two year old foster child with a conduct/attatchment disorder will have structural differences in their brain visible on a brain scan, that will be permanent,

They can be trained to behave well, to know what behaviour pleases their carers, and what behaviour leads to the happiest life.

What they cannot do is develop an innate sense of right and wrong. They can learn what is socially acceptable, if they want to, but it will never be an instinct.

Anyone who has adopted or fostered two year old and showered them with love, patience and discipline will tell you, it is too late to undo the damage.

Greenshoots1 · 27/12/2017 07:58

How does a pre verbal baby communicate?

some of them by throwing, scratching and biting. Not through innate "badness" but instinctively - would you accept this, or teach them its not ok?

That is extreme to illustrate the point.

babies are not always going to understand of course, or be able to control themselves, but that doesn't mean you don't tell them off ever!

I told you I saw a baby saved by being controlled by their mothers voice whilst in a potentially deadly situation. That child was 12 months old, and knew to stop what they were doing s soon as Mum said "no" in a loud stern way.

Because of that that baby is now 20 and enjoying university, rather than a pile of ashes in a church yard.

Spikeyball · 27/12/2017 08:07

This baby was screaming not hitting anyone. How else does a pre verbal baby communicate?

Your other theories are somewhat concerning.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 08:13

‘a" child psychologist didn't teach us that, it is standard, basic, level 1 information for anyone training to care for children with attachment disorders or similar.’

  • No. it really is not.
FarFrom · 27/12/2017 08:16

The structural brain changes make children who have been abused etc more likely to be reactive and they bypass being able to stop and think. It’s an adaptive way to survive in danger and sadly means that they see danger when it isn’t and it ends up hot being adaptive when away from abuse. It has nothing to do with ‘knowing right ans wrong’.

Greenshoots1 · 27/12/2017 08:28

it has everything to do with knowing right and wrong, this instinct develops at the same time and in the same place - if it isn't developed by parents at this time, then it won't develop, full stop.

Greenshoots1 · 27/12/2017 08:32

This baby was screaming not hitting anyone.

the baby was screaming for fun, as I understand it.

What age would you tell a baby to stop doing that?

11 months? 12 months? 13 mnths? you presumably wouldn't accept it in a baby of 20 months, who may also still be pre-varbal.

And you agree you would tell off an 11 month old baby for hitting, so you agree in principle that you can disipline a child of this age?

Why not for shouting and screaming then?

Greenshoots1 · 27/12/2017 08:34

Your other theories are somewhat concerning.

they are not "my" theories, they are current medical and neurological understanding.

Yes, it is very "concerning" how badly damaged a child can be, how early, but it is something people need to understand.

In fact, go back a few generations, and it was quite clearly understood, but fashions and fads in child rearing have tended towards the less disciplined.

Which might account for the generational difference in this case.

Pengggwn · 27/12/2017 08:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LuchiMangsho · 27/12/2017 08:37

How do YOU know it was screaming for fun and not out of tiredness?!
And they don't have the MORAL capacity for right or wrong but you can teach them to OBEY you. Obedience has nothing to do with learning what's right or wrong.

I say this as a strict mum with two obedient kids who are well behaved. Your expectations are ridiculous. There is an age when kids do need to obey because they lack the ability to reason and make rational judgements for themselves. So I would expect my sons to 'stop' when I said it. Without having to resort to a zillion explanations but I would, post facto indeed explain why to them. As they grew older and their capacity for reasoning increased my mode of communication has changed.

But that is different from suggesting that babies need to know right from wrong. They can't, because they lack the moral and rational capacity to do so. What they can know is to obey what you say when you want them to. And it's something to be used sparingly because children need freedom within boundaries.

Spikeyball · 27/12/2017 08:38

He wasn't screaming for fun. The op states that.
I have a non verbal 12 year old with sld so I am well up on non verbal communication.

LuchiMangsho · 27/12/2017 08:39

And please find me some scientific evidence for this neurological stuff. We are under paediatric and neuro consultant care because my second son was born v prem with a brain bleed. So far we haven't seen any adverse effect from it even though his brain was severely traumatised in the early weeks. I have had a LOT of conversation with a bunch of top London consultants about early neuro development, expectations and none of them have EVER suggested that he is doomed if he can't tell right from wrong by a year.

Greenshoots1 · 27/12/2017 08:49

And they don't have the MORAL capacity for right or wrong but you can teach them to OBEY you. Obedience has nothing to do with learning what's right or wrong.

yes it does, that is the start of it, knowing that some behaviour is ok, and some is not.

Look at yourselves, if you have a sense of right and wrong, that doesn't mean you know what is the right thing to do in every situation, does it?

And not always being able to make the moral judgement doesn't mean you don't have a sense of right and wrong.

Greenshoots1 · 27/12/2017 08:50

How do YOU know it was screaming for fun and not out of tiredness?!

Thats how I interpreted the OP, who referred to "shouting" which normally means making a loud noise for the sake of it, rather than "crying" which is communication of anger and distress.

Maybe I misunderstood, but that is how I would interpret it.

PossumBottom · 27/12/2017 08:52

Green shoots I'm a little concerned. Attachment disorder isn't anything to do with knowing 'right from wrong'. It refers to the bond between child and caregiver. 11 month olds need love and attention from an emotionally stable and attentive adult.

11 month olds don't need to be taught about good and bad behaviour. They are fundamentally incapable of 'naughty' behaviour.

MollyCule · 27/12/2017 08:53

YANBU I would be really pissed off about the 'bad baby' comment.

There is a big difference between telling a child "no" in terms of not touching something or not climbing on something or whatever; and trying to tell them 'no' in order to get them to stop crying or screaming.

My DD responds well (most of the time) to being told not "no don't go near the oven it's very hot" or similar, but if she was crying/ shouting out of boredom/ frustration saying "no" is futile.

Greenshoots1 · 27/12/2017 08:54

I can't be bothered with this.

I am highly trained, very experienced expert in the field.

Some people reading might have found what I said interesting nd informative, if so I am glad.

Some people just want to argue, maybe because it contradicts their philosophy on child rearing, maybe because they just don't like to learn something new to them, maybe they are just oppositional people.

Either way, can't be arsed to argue. I have told you some of the current medical and neurological understanding on social brain development.

Like it or dislike it, believe it or disbelieve it, what ever, its up to you, and your response is irrelevant to me.

I'm off to more interesting threads.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 08:55

Green your understanding of this really isn’t right.

Yes children can be very damaged by adverse early experiences. That is not the same as not being told no at 11 months and there is absolutely no clear cut evidence that morality is set in stone by 18 months. I don’t know if it’s your misinterpretation or the people who trained you but it is a massive misunderstanding of the research/ clinical experience.
I highly recommend reading graham music’s nurturing natures but remember the brain although vulnerable when young has placiticity throughout life.
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1138101443/ref=dp_ob_neva_mobile?tag=mumsnetforum-21

cathf · 27/12/2017 08:58

Farfrom, have you got any training in this area?

laurzj82 · 27/12/2017 08:58

unless a child has an inate sense of right and wrong by 18 months, they have missed the boat and will never have a git feeling for it ever.

Green do you know where the evidence for this comes from? I am only at the beginning of my studies in developmental psychology. This sounds bonkers to me from a common sense perspective but I would love to read the research behind it.

FarFrom · 27/12/2017 08:59

Cath- yes

cathf · 27/12/2017 09:02

FarFrom -fair enough
Now puzzled how two professionals have such opposing views Confused

laurzj82 · 27/12/2017 09:04

Hope I didn't come across as goady Green, I am genuinely interested.