C. Sections

[User02]

Another thread has made me think about this enough to ask for opinions.
My DD was born by C.Section. I think it was quite primitive in those days and only done after hours of labour.
When DD grew up she started saying that I was "too posh to push". I was not too posh I was in a desperate state. She would say this to lots of people who really did not need to know anything about my childbirth experiences
Eventually DD had children and had some fast deliveries.
Was she unreasonable to criticise me for the method of her birth?

reallyorange

I sash happily going out and about after my Elcs, whilst most of my nct group were still struggling to sit down. Apart from the 1/7 of us to have a very uncomplicated tear free birth, my elcs was the quickest recovery of everyone.

Op, your daughter seems to have a lot of issues - this is just a small part of it. I'm really sad for you that she seems to treat you so badly.

Ohhhhh, I've stirred up a bit of venom on here haven't I!
I just don't understand why, when an op asks for people's opinions if somebody gives their opinion and others don't agree they feel the need to castigate and attempt to start an argument. The OP did not ask for everybody who comments to critisize other people's comments. Am I not allowed to have an opinion that does not fit in with everybody else's??
And, just to clarify in case I wasn't clear. Anybody who has a c section as opposed to a natural birth for no other reason but they want one is, in my opinion , quite stupid. It's major abdominal surgery FFS and carries a myriad of risks for mother and baby. If it was a good idea then it would be availiable in the NHS all over wouldn't it?
However, any mum who has a c section because of risk to her or child, or because they have been abused and can't bear to be touched or because they had a traumatic previous birth which left them traumatised etc etc ( and I'm sure there are 1001 reasons why) is having a section for a valid reason NOT just because they don't want a vaginal birth.

Does she live at home with you OP?

Am I not allowed to have an opinion that does not fit in with everybody else's??

When your opinion is inflammatory and you know for a fact it will likely upset quite a lot of people then it's far better to keep your mouth shut. It's called tact and it's the most basic element of polite conversation.

Anybody who has a c section as opposed to a natural birth for no other reason but they want one is, in my opinion , quite stupid.

And people who spout off random shite about things they know nothing about are, in my opinion, also quite stupid.

User, I think you have let your dd con you into believing this is about her way of delivery. It isn't. It's just a tree she has chosen to hang her general unhappiness on, and she perseveres (rather unusually) into doing this in adulthood because it works: it makes you unhappy.

a) the teen years

Let's face it: most teens feel scared and unhappy at some time. They look around for somebody to blame, they see their parents, and they try to think of something hurtful to say to them. My teen blames me for being "too posh". Other teens blame their parents for being too poor, or too strict, or too unkind, or too old, or too young. The proper response (unless you feel they have a genuine grudge about something you could or should change) is to tell them that you are ready to sympathise about their troubles but that you really won't listen to this silly complaint. End of story. Teenagers need to feel that their parents are a rock which they can lean on.

b) adult age

This is trickier, but a modified approach might work here too. Tell her calmly that you love her and are always ready to help her or listen to her, but that as for her delivery the best decision was made at the time and you really aren't prepared to discuss that any further. The calmer and more brisk you can seem, the better.

What is clearly happening is that she feels very uncomfortable about the choices she has made in life, she may have felt judged by you for those choices (how tactful were you when trying to get her away from her unsuitable relationship?) and now she desperately wants to persuade herself that the wrong choices were made by somebody else, not by her.

When you talk about your helplessness, you mention your inability to shout and swear as if that would have been the way to make an impression on an angry teen. But it isn't, you know, it really isn't. Doesn't work with adult children either. What can work, if anything works, is a cheerful kindly attitude (faked if necessary) - because that gives power in a way that ranting doesn't.

You are probably right in that there is something wrong with her. But if you model helplessness in the face of her onslaughts, she will know that you cannot help her.

She’s silly and naive.

Get her to read accounts of what happens in countries with no medical care. Googling ‘obstetric fistula’ might be a start. Silly girl.

Cory, that is a very insightful post.

OP, I am of course speculating but could your dd's fast (presumably smooth) births be the one area she is proud of and feels superior to you, when she otherwise feels bad about her life and choices in other areas compared to yours. Hence she keeps harping on this with the added benefit of knowing that what she says gets to you.

I like cory's suggestion of faked cheeriness if she says it again. I suspect that your dd may be less inclined to scratch this wound for effect if it just bounces off you.

Perhaps give it a shot?

Thank you all.
I think perhaps her relatively easy or normal births is one thing she has done more conventionally than other areas of her life and it may make her feel she has done better than me on that issue.
I think I will try the fake cheeriness. I see that I may have appeared weak in comparison to all the shouting and swearing.
As for being tactful about her unsuitable relationship it was not always appropriate to be tactful sometimes it was a question of rushing around to achieve an aim such as arriving in a car in the middle of the night getting her and babes in the car and driving away fast in full view of Police. The person knew no boundaries when it came to violence. I tried so hard to get her away but she kept going back. The final breakdown is too awful to state publicly.
She does not live in the same house as me. I am glad for this as I don't know what state I would be in if I lived with any more put downs. I only have her best interests at heart.

yorkshireyummymummy

Only idiots would choose to have c section when they were quite capable of a vaginal delivery.

And I think that's really rude. I'm not having a second DC because I've been told I can't choose a section over an induction and I am never going through being induced again because I still, getting on for five years afterwards, find it traumatic to think about and if I talk about it I relive it.

But, that's all fine and I'm an idiot.

Blue , I was the same. I certainly wasn't bouncing out of hospital but I seemed over all in far better shape after my planned Elc than every single other lady in my nct group, one of whom nearly died and required on going treatment for months, another who was in for a week with bladder damage etc etc.

I'm raising my dc that it's the their body and their choice. Maternity pays out fortunes for botched births and life time care from damage. If they decide they want elc I will be supporting them all the way and I hope we get to the point where it is as choice
Every single member of my nct group had far more hospital intervention and time than me.

Yorkshire mummy you sound woefully ignorant in this matter I think people giving valid arguments on such an emotional subject is fine but talking drivel is quite another.

Your have no idea how much you will deliver until you... Deliver, it's a massive gamble.

I support anyone who says, I don't want that gamble, in many cases it's even a gamble as to whether you can get into the maternity ward to labour! Many hospitals shut thier doors. I don't want to gamble and I want ti take a more assured option which is elc.

Many women are cut or tear below, many women including myself would prefer to have a cut I can see, that doesn't impact as much as a cut below, and a reduced amount of Risks.
I also read more educated and or intelligent women including a high number in health care chose to have elc.

She’s being completely unreasonable. The NHS don’t give women c-sections without a good reason.

I was born by emergency c-section. Not because my mum was “too posh to push” , but because my mum had life threatening pre-eclampsia. Without the c-section, she would most likely have died, and I would have died along with her. I’m very grateful that my mum had the c-section that was needed to save both our lives, and have been ever since I was old enough to understand why I was born by c-section.

My youngest DC was also born by emergency c-section. I was perfectly capable of having a vaginal delivery. I’d done it twice before with no problems. But my baby’s heart rate was failing because he had the cord wrapped around his neck. He would almost certainly have been born dead if I hadn’t consented to having a c-section. And I would very much rather have a live baby born by c-section than a dead one born vaginally. Anyone who thinks choosing the c-section makes me too posh to push just doesn’t have a clue what they’re talking about.
And again, I’m very grateful that I live in a country where these life saving operations are available for women and babies who need them.

It would perhaps be worth pointing out to your DD what the consequences of you not having that c-section would have been.
But I do wonder, as some pp have said, whether this is less about c-sections and more about her fixating on something that she can try to blame for other things in her life that aren’t as she’d like.

God, why do threads of this nature always turn it into a competition of who had the worst birth experience; whether vaginal or caesarean?

"But I nearly died I tell thee!"

Most of you just waded in to tell your own stories and have offered nothing to the OP of substace except to tell her you had a section after being induced and your baby was starved of oxygen and they cut you open without anaesthetic. Oh and you are now traumatised obviously which makes you much better than those who just pushed their babies out. Irrelevant. Or those who had an ELCS which was all sunshine and roses which means they are better than those who had a vaginal delivery. Also irrelevant. Competetive birth stories. God help us.

Anyway, back to the actual topic. OP, your issues with your DD run deeper than this. I hope you can find some way forward. Just don't let her walk over you because you love her.

I think I have been too soft on this subject of how DD was born. I can see some reasoning in her attacking me on this subject. I don't remember much about the C. Section, I don't recall giving consent but I was grateful that the outcome was a live baby and mum.
Given the things that have happened to my DD I would agree that she has issues. I am the safe person to take these issues out on. DD may be unhappy with some of her choices in life. I realise that I told you so in not an acceptable thing to say in the circumstances and I avoid such a comment. It is exhausting to keep trying to hint at better options. I have in the past and just now I have distanced myself from DD but should there be a real problem I would be there. I am so sad for her even though she is making my life unhappy.
Thanks to all

I wonder if sometimes the best thing we can do for our children is just to be there without hinting at better options. Just being there. Letting them off-load. But at the same time, not letting them hurt us, either, obviously.

zevite- a csection is not less risky than a natural birth. Major abdominal surgery does impact more than a tear/ cut that may or may not occur during childbirth.
Who are these ' more educated and highly intelligent women' that you have read about?? ( I'm afraid Katie Price and Victoria Beckham don't count)
So I think you sound 'Woefully ignorant" with your drivel.
I hope that you and the scar you can see (???) are happy.

mirme - if you read my second post above you will see , that incase people didn't understand I have clarified my point which is that if you NEED a csection , for whatever physical/ mental reason then you need one ( abuse, traumatic previous birth , pre eclampsia, too small in the pelvis to risk a natural delivery etc. I didn't think I needed to list every single reason) . However, women who have no physical / mental need for a c section but still choose to have one ( which, under NHS rules you would need to go private for) are indeed stupid. This is MY opinion and I'm quite entitled to have it. Believing this does not make me stupid or mean that I talk drivel or any of the other insults which have been thrown at me simply because I have a different opinion from most of the posters on here. But the NHS agrees with me because it doesn't do this because of the much higher risks associated with a c section as opposed to a vaginal delivery.
So at least now I know that on mumsnet, if you disagree with the majority for whatever reason you get called a load of insulting names. How nice.

Who are these ' more educated and highly intelligent women' that you have read about??

It's pretty well documented that the ELCS rate amongst obstetricians is well above that of the national average

Ie those highly educated women who know all the risks and see the best and worst of both delivery methods, day in and out, are more likely to chose a section.**

However, women who have no physical / mental need for a c section but still choose to have one ( which, under NHS rules you would need to go private for) are indeed stupid.

Please, explain what you mean by "need". Do I need one? It's usually a chance of estimating risk - if I had an 8% chance of a 4th degree tear, would I need a c-section? What about if it was a 50% chance? What if I was never actually going to tear again - how would I know in advance? I'm amazed that my consultants haven't told me just how cut & dried it seems to be...

NHS doesn't offer it because of the cost, not because CS is higher risk.

CS is the safest method of delivery for the individual baby.

Who are these ' more educated and highly intelligent women' that you have read about??

The five women I know who work as obstetric surgeons for one ...

I had a very clear need - placenta previa and vasa previa so it was a c or both of us bleed out. I’d have gone ‘normal’ otherwise but who am I to judge? I know women with catastrophic life changing injuries from vaginal birth - all of them wish they’d had sections and most of them requested and were refused. I think that’s poor care and poor clinical outcome, dont you? Would men be treated like this? Well Brian, I think we can try to let your massive kidney stone just sort itself out, don’t be a wimp, that’s just your ureter rupturing, come on now, try harder, didn’t you learn your breathing excercises? Pain relief?? Oh no we don’t do that Brian ok well you’ve failed!

Birth is Inherently unpredictable- you can’t tell who will have complications. You can’t say ahead of time who would be damaged by vb and who sails through. So there is no ‘women who have no reason or need’ because you can never tell. And lots of women have ongoing complications and there’s no recording of them which again is failing women dreadfully.

Having had a c I’m not sure why it’s seen as the easy option. I felt like I’d been hit by a truck and was opened hip to hip. But basically we need women to suffer dont we? Starts in the bible with the bringing forth in pain and has gone from there. God forbid women give birth in a way they are happy with that doesn’t hurt.

Yes that is unreasonable of her! Ceasearean birth is not an easier option, whatever the reasons and in many cases life saving for that mother or baby. I am a midwife and truly believe that we need to stop referring to birth as 'delivery' or 'sections' etc. No one else birthed that baby, you did!

OP, it must be the hardest thing as a mother to let go and watch your baby makes mistakes and get hurt. Your dd is 30. She needs to find her own way. The only thing you can do is protect yourself and watch from afar. I am so sorry. I hope she works it out eventually.

Yorkshire I have done both and yes, a huge abdominal scar was 100 times less painful than a tiny tear that felt like some one was scrapping their nails on my privates and pouring lemon juice on then when I tried to pee. Head mid wife told me tears like that can be the most painful thing.
The joy of having my body intact after a birth was amazing.
Delivery by calm elc is safer than risking the myriad of issues in labour. The women are doctors, consultants and women who do their research.

anatide sp.

Yes yes to the no recording or monitoring, and yes it's failing women. This is why I cringe when people rely solely on stats because they are simply not true. Start asking and following every women who has had labour see if they have any medical issues after, then we can start to get a true idea of what's happening out there.