To wonder why MN is so left wing/liberal?

[cdvegan2023]

MN hates Brexit, the tories, pink toys, violent video games... you get the idea. But in real life most women don't mind buying gender specific toys/clothes and the election/brexit female vote was about 50/50. So what makes this place 90% lefty/lib when general society is either split or completely reversed?

"Here we go, anyone who might see a problem with mass uncontrolled migration is a racist. Typical."

Do you think we have mass uncontrolled migration?

Yes I do, they have no idea who is even in the country.

In the real world principles go out of the window when you are struggling.

In the real world most people don't have the time money or the inclination to have principles beyond looking after themselves and their family.

Hence if you are a middle income family and a proposal comes across that if you are prepared to pay £40 a month extra in tax we could eradicate poverty !

The said family will say no thanks , we will vote for the party that leaves us £40 a month better off.

What we're witnessing here is of course 'divide and conquer' in action and it's working. Won't benefit any of us here but we won't notice it cos we're too busy arguing with each other and getting entrenched in our 'us vs them' camps.

G1itterati so true. My brother runs a very profitable city company. He bangs on about what a lefty he is. But if you ask him what terms the cleaners and security guards at his firms are employed on he has no idea. They're temps in the gig economy. When you ask him why he says 'well that's just how business is but the government should stop it'. So much for principles.

It's extraordinary to suggest that 16 year olds might only hold left-wing views because they are easily manipulated. Why don't the right manipulate them easily, then? Should be a piece of cake if the right wing are so correct that sensible people realise this as they age.

But of course neither of those things are true.

Plenty of people over the age of 30 hold left of centre views, including (in case you hadn't noticed) many Labour and Lib Dem MPs.

There are quite a few studies showing, among other things, that people with right wing political views tend to be more rigid and authoritarian in their thinking (they prefer right/wrong to grey and inbetweeny), and that they also have bigger amygdalas - they are more fearful. (Obviously this is a correlation across large groups of people, not a fact about every person who might have voted Tory at the last election)

That's why the Daily Mail and Trump and Farage know exactly how to excite latent right-wing feelings. You play on fear - fear of immigration, fear of job losses, fear of loss of control, fear of difference. It might also explain why many people do become more right wing as they age. They become more inflexible in their thinking and often more worried about things.

Speak for yourself, mountford.

It can be much harder to fulfil one's principles while struggling oneself, but people still hold the principles.

They also still act on them. The "widow's mite" is a significant feature of charitable giving - where people give small amounts which are a higher proportion of their income than wealthier donors are giving.

You can see it for yourself if you're involved with fundraising, or online at Just Giving or whatever.

Elton-
Yes the left excel at pointing out problems but no workable solutions- other than socialism- which is always going to not end well.

Bless you, missymoo, the current government. Which isn't Corbyn.

They've lost a lot of respect from business over Brexit. Business is telling them we need immigration.

In order to win back the respect of business, our present government - you know, the one that claims to be 'business friendly' - is going to have to do some serious work to prove they listen to the needs of business.

Honestly, the thought of how that is going to play with the devoted anti-Brexiters is one of the few things keeping me going in these bleak times.

I also think its a privilege to be able to look at political ideology above any economic concerns !

People that are able to analyse policies and ideology on purely philosophical and emotional terms, rather than soley on 'economic' terms are indeed privileged .

Thecat - of course they will. They want human capital (workers) - and don't care where they get it from. Just whip up those in the cheap seats to fight amongst themselves, while they quietly get on with coining it.

Cat from Japan-
As I've said the tories are unfit for purpose, I'm not defending them- they have done little to boost business, or do anything really that conservatives are supposed to. I don't think they stand for anything other than cuts and don't particularly care where they wield the axe.
I would dread Corbyn though if he ever got into power-
His solution to everything is just to throw money at it, he's thinks he's like a modern day Robin Hood, stealing from the rich to give to the poor- well I'm pretty sure he'd bankrupt us.

It's extraordinary to suggest that 16 year olds might only hold left-wing views because they are easily manipulated. Why don't the right manipulate them easily, then?

Because the right doesn't pretend to have all the easy answers the left does. The left basically says we will give you everything you want, for free and for zero effort. And we will also give it to any random who turns up at the border too. When you're young you believe this and you think it is the 'nice' thing to do. Young people are also very concentrated on free stuff now and don't think about the future.

As you get older you realise that at some point somebody will pay for the free stuff today and someone will have to work for it. You realise that there aren't any easy answers and often the policy of 'give everyone what they want has unpleasant fall out like social problems, lack of housing, overstretched services etc, etc, etc.

By the way, there isn't a homogenous 'Left'. There's a massively broad spectrum of views amongst progressives and left-leaning people.

Just as there is on the right.

Moreover, there is no longer a straightforward correlation between economic conservatism and conservatism in social attitudes.

The oddest thing I'm finding about this thread is the conflation of economic and social conservatism. I don't think that rings true for many people's experience in RL.

I have friends who have conservative economic views (of varying hues) but we are friends because we share similar social attitudes (attitudes which could be characterised as progressive).

It's odd having conversations with posters who keep on talking about the 'attitudes of the left' when what they are describing are the attitudes of people I know who are, actually, Conservatives and very definitely economic conservatives.

By the way, there isn't a homogenous 'Left'. There's a massively broad spectrum of views amongst progressives and left-leaning people.

Just as there is on the right.

Moreover, there is no longer a straightforward correlation between economic conservatism and conservatism in social attitudes.

The oddest thing I'm finding about this thread is the conflation of economic and social conservatism. I don't think that rings true for many people's experience in RL.

I have friends who have conservative economic views (of varying hues) but we are friends because we share similar social attitudes (attitudes which could be characterised as progressive).

It's odd having conversations with posters who keep on talking about the 'attitudes of the left' when what they are describing are the attitudes of people I know who are, actually, Conservatives and very definitely economic conservatives.

Perhaps so mountford, but if people are claiming that those who don't agree with their opinions are less ultruistic and care less about others, then voting out of financial self interest reeks of irony.

Has anyone here ever really, truly tried to question their beliefs? And I mean beyond reading press from the "opposite side" looking for confirmation bias?

I was a rigid "left wing" voter, very Liberal and aggressively feminist. I'm now what many would describe as right wing.
All I did was judge issues based on the evidence, and disallowed myself from arguing logical fallicies and my "political leaning" changed dramatically.
It may change again, I may notice an oversight or lack of logic in my reasoning.

It's very easy to get caught up in an "us v them" mentality, but on closer inspection most people want the same things. They just blame different people as the reason they can't have them. Nobody really seems to question the system which clearly doesn't work - except for the self interests of a few - at all.

"Because the right doesn't pretend to have all the easy answers the left does. The left basically says we will give you everything you want, for free and for zero effort. And we will also give it to any random who turns up at the border too."
The Left doesn't actually say this at all. The Right says that's what the left says- and sadly people believe them....

You know, having thought about it a little more, some of the posters on here do not sound at all like conservatives (small c), they sound like authoritarian nihilists. Which is a completely different kettle of fish.

And @bertrandrussell you're saying that the right says that's what the left says.
Seeing a theme?

Does anybody actually listen to what anybody is saying? Or are we just all generalising and putting words in other people's mouths, then calling them wrong, rather than offering arguments of our own to be challenged or otherwise?
Or is it not the done thing to debate the merits of actual specific ideas, issues or policy in detail?

Petty drivel, barely a single actual argument in the whole 10 pages. Keep screaming your virtuous signals into your respective echo chambers, I'm out.

The Left doesn't actually say this at all. The Right says that's what the left says- and sadly people believe them....

Let's not pretend that it's an exclusive right wing thing, hyperbole and slippery slope arguments are used on either side

Eliminate student debt was an empty headline policy, labour themselves had to publicly drop it after the GE as they said it would cost too much and not feasible, that was obviously after post after post on here, even economically conservative views on here are met with the tired daily mail trope.

Nobody intelligent believes any simplistic political nugget. Of course "the Left" doesn't say you can get everything for nothing nor does "the Right" want to kill poor people by starving them.

It's clear that both political parties want economic prosperity and security, but they differ in how they believe it can be achieved. There's no perfect political system so everything is a trade off - more money on defence or more money on hospitals? lower taxes or greater social spending? selective education or comprehensive education? nationalisation or privatisation?

I think thecatfromjapan is right too about the difference between economic and social conservatism.

I think Mumsnet is quite balanced between left and right wing, but you will tend to get the more extreme or vocal posters expressing themselves and lots of people who are in the middle or just plain unsure won't join the debate. It's just like on the atheist/theist debates. People who don't care that much are unlikely to post.

I don't think authoritan is specifically a right wing trope either thecatfromjapan there are many instances of the left being massively in favour of authoritan policies, it's the same goal but made from different starting points.

BertandRussell

^Because the right doesn't pretend to have all the easy answers the left does. The left basically says we will give you everything you want, for free and for zero effort. And we will also give it to any random who turns up at the border too."
The Left doesn't actually say this at all. The Right says that's what the left says- and sadly people believe them....^

You mean the left is against massive spending giveaways and open borders? Really? Which part of it are you against?

It's great isn't it OP? So refreshing in this world of right wing fake news.

The left increasingly hate free speech- they refuse to engage in debate further than telling people how bad they are.
Look at free speech week at Berkeley when conservative Ben shapiro was doing a talk- it cost thousands to police because of the leftists turning up causing trouble. Ben shapiros views aren't hateful just conservative.
I don't want the left "protecting" me from so called "hateful" speech. They come up with the most ridiculous statements such as speech is violence.
I do realise that this is generalising - but I genuinely see a left wing bias by mainstream media and demonisation of anything considered right wing, furthering a shift towards left wing views