to be worried that we are heading towards a cashless society?

[WaitingforGalGadot]

I read an article a few days ago about how the Government would like to phase out cash so that everyone is compelled to pay by card or bank transfer, supposedly to make things easier and quicker and destroy the black market.

I actually think this is really ominous as once there is no more cash, there is no more anonymity and your spending habits and lifestyle can be tracked even if you are not doing anything illegal. Big Brother watching your every more.

It also means the banks can impose negative interest rates (where you have to pay the banks to hold your money) on savings accounts to get people to spend rather than see their savings reduced and of course also means that you don't really have control of your own money since the banks can collapse, bail in your money or appropriate it (as has happened in places like Argentina, not too long ago).

Cash is also really useful and personally I don't find it a faff to use cash. I think this is really scary.

@splendide My fella works in the fraud dept of a major bank and is constantly banging on about how fraud is far more frequent with pin than with contactless. Can't remember the exact details (because I normally switch off when he starts one of his lectures) but he insists contactless is safer overall. I can get the details and try not to fall asleep if anyone is particularly interested.

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arrgghhh
wrong thread

That’s interesting liverbird, it’s a bit counterintuitive but they must have considered all this.

I know people have mentioned Sweden already - we were in Norway over the summer and I was really surprised that it was effectively cashless there too, even in really tiny villages. Definitely felt like the future, and I expect much more hygienic too.

but how will we snort our coke with no banknotes??

I was in Kenya 2 yrs ago. My group massed a load of cash together to pay the porters' tip. I guess we could have done mass transfers via phone(s).

Except my phone couldn't do that at all. I had cash, we all had cash. The porters quite liked our cash. .

Is it because contactless requires you to actually have the phone/ card on you? Rather than entering what is just a string of numbers you might have on a spreadsheet if you've hacked someone, to buy stuff online or a copied or stolen card?

None of it addresses what would happen following a natural disaster when the power's out for a few days/ a week if cash has really been totally phased out as legal tender.

No electricity - nobody can pay for anything.

A barter economy takes a while to get going and little old couple/ single mum coping in a flat with several children and no power who've run out of bread, milk and toilet paper (or nappies...) might not have anything anyone wants to barter...

curiousaboutsamphire The point of the example of how London buses are cashless isn't to suggest it can or should be rolled out elsewhere - clearly it's not in any way applicable to rural areas where the technical infrastructure and financial behaviour is completely differen at the current time. It's simply an example to show how we can see cashless payments operating already in a major public service within Britain, and not just Sweden - in response to comments which expressed incredulity that this could be either workable or desirable

Oyster cards are the contactless tickets used to travel on the tube, bus and overground rail network in London. They're prepaid cards, which you can buy and top up with cash at any tube station or most newsagents - much as you'd top up mobile phone credit. Being able to use a contactless debit card (or Apple Pay - so you can also pay with your phone or watch) is relatively newish - but you absolutely don't need to have a debit card at all. You can top up the smart card with cash

In terms of whether quicker is better, certainly in London where congestion is massive, every extra minute that a bus is at a stand for has a knock on effect on the whole route.

Transport for London said that whilst in 2000 roughly 25% of journeys were paid for in cash, by 2014 (when the policy change was introduced) their data showed this had dropped to less than 1%.

So the policy was introduced when the behaviour for cashless was already there - clearly that would be neither practicable or desirable in other areas

banana the problem is that big companies roll things out when they become NormalforLondon, without thinking about much of the local issues.

I am sure I have mentioned our lack of banks 4 market towns, possibly 5, without a single bank between them! I suspect they think we all shop online, but we still have real shops, butchers, bakers, chandlers, florists, fruit and veg shops... we like using them! They need to be able to bank, they can't rely on cashless transactions, many of their customers are unhappy with cashless too!!! We have already seen a quite significant drop in the local economy since the last bank closed!

Oyster card - I don't have an iPhone either, so I assume I can't get around London, should I ever choose to visit. Mainly because I haven't the foggiest idea what all that is about! Except the bit about congestion... I'll stay away if it is that bad.

But would question it again... is speed, necessary for London it seems, really the only criteria for forcing viable, local economies to shrink? Because 'market forces' mean that is exactly what is happening 'out here'.

To be honest, I probably care less about how easy it is in London that you care how inconvenient it is out here in NotLondon. I see so very many issues with going cashless, from a distrust of 'the system' to knowing the data collected will not be used to better my life, more to better the profit making of the companies involved. One of which is that reduction in local trade, a loss of small, unique traders.

Doubtless in time we'll get the infrastructure, but it would be nice to actually have it before being forced to use it!

I live rurally and my local market town sounds very similar to your area Samphire, even down to losing the one remaining bank next summer.

I think a lot of mumsnetters who live in London and other towns and cities simply can't visualise our day to day way of life. However I do visit London fairly regularly and have found the Oyster card/contactless debit card invaluable for using public transport.

Admittedly to a stranger from out of town or abroad it would be confusing at first. For instance when arriving at St Pancras buying an Oyster card isn't that obvious or intuitive, but once you know the score it is definitely easier than much quicker than queuing to buy tickets.

I rarely use cash. Like almost never! And with Apple Pay I now use my phone for a lot of transactions under £30
I think it's great! I save money because instead of lifting £10 from the atm for lunch, I just pay what it costs!
The only time I use cash is for the local Chinese, the car wash and the man who cleans my wheelie bin lol! I even pay the window cleaner by PayPal!

There was a Freakonomics podcast about this recently, it was very interesting if anyone wants to listen. One of the main points was that a cashless society would all but stop the drug trade in its tracks.

I don’t get the people saying that they prefer to use cash because the banks in their town are all closed.
Surely if there are no banks then not using cash is much easier. Where are you getting cash from if there are no banks?

There are still ATMs (2 more banks in my town about to close).
While supermarket ATMs & PO ATM & corner shop ATMs remain.

Thanks for the explanation for how Oyster cards work.
I'd end up putting cash on it & losing it.

One of the main points was that a cashless society would all but stop the drug trade in its tracks
are you sure about that?
isnt most of the buying and selling of illicit items done on online dark markets with bitcoin these days?

Can somebody explain Bitcoin to me. I keep coming across the term, but don't fully understand it.

Re Oyster cards. I can't check online how much is left on DD's card because it gets used about once a year. Fortunately, last time we were in London I checked it in the machine on the way home, and it now has a post it note with the balance stuck to it.

Ive got a good oyster app that is really easy to check balance ,journeys etc. You can even name cards to make it easier.

The idea of a cashless society is definitely interesting and scary. On one hand I find the use of cash annoying. I only specifically get cash out for certain things, but even now my bus and taxis take card as well.

Living in the north of England were some shops don't even have the ability to take card yet, going cashless would be an absolute disaster. We recently visited London for a touristy esque trip and we were surprised at how everywhere took card! From little market stalls, to paying on the buses with our contactless cards. Infact people were kind of shocked/annoyed when we paid with cash! It was like another planet. I definitely think we are heading to a cashless society. Cash is inconvinient, but the throught of not having the option makes me never want to use card again!

Also it makes me think the replacement of all the currency to this new stuff is so people who do have cash savings hidden would then have to take it to the bank so they get the new notes? I've never considered the control you could have over a completely cashless society.

I have my Oyster card registered to my email address so I can track my usage online or via the app. In practice I rarely do this because I have auto top up set up - whenever the balance drops below a given threshold amount, it automatically tops up by a given amount (linked to a debit card) so I never have to worry about checking my balance and manually topping up. Registering it means I also could cancel it when I lost it - TFL refunded me the amount of the remaining balance on the card when I cancelled it, only problem was they did so via cheque!! I can't wait till we can have the feature several US banks have (where use of cheques is still massive) whereby we can just photograph the cheque with our phones to pay it into our accounts. Barclays have been rolling it out and apparently this should land in early 2018, so no need to get down to a branch to pay in a cheque

If you prefer to keep your travel movements anonymous then you can keep your Oyster card unregistered and just top up as needed

I've booked a party for DD's birthday and paid the deposit by bank transfer. The organiser said she prefers the balance to be paid in cash. I have a feeling her tax returns won't tell the full story!

A lot of eBay buyers like cash on collection to avoid PayPal fees.

I have my Oyster card registered to my email address so I can track my usage online or via the app

Does this thread remind anyone else of the thread about "At what point will smart phones become compulsory to own?" So many people were poo-pooing that, saying of course smartphones won't ever be forced on folk.

I don’t understand the link there - you don’t need a smartphone to access email. And you don’t need an email address to have an Oyster card.

Folk are saying how easy Oyster is to use. You just need the app & the email. Thus, there's no excuse for not going cashless, is the subtext of that statement.

Except if you don't have a smart phone or don't want a contract one, anyway, that is cheap to use constantly. Then not so easy to use Oyster.

I do the book-keeping for a busy convenience store, turnover £16k per week, so quite large. The breakdown of their till sales, are roughly 50:50 between cash and cards. So, there seems to be a long way to go yet before cards take over and cash is phased out.