For those who pierce their baby's ears...

[Username7654321]

Would you see it as okay to pierce their nose? Eyebrow? Tongue? Why is it okay to stab a needle through the ear lobe, when presumably most people would be horrified by any other piercing on a baby?!

My DB wasn't a baby - but he regrets his pierced ear.

I also have a couple of friends who had multiple ear piercings and now regret having more than one because their ears have visible marks.

So yes it is wholly possible that some children will grow up to regret it. Which is hard when it wasn't their choice.

Has anyone ever met one of these?*

Me. I was 8 though and begged my mum for ages before she gave in. I was also responsible enough to do the aftercare myself. As an adult I find them annoying to wear but at least it was my decision.

Because an infection at 16 means you definitely would have had one as a baby, or even at any other time 🙄

The vast majority of people, around the world, do it when babies are newborn's to stop touching, therefore limiting infection.

It's actually funny to hear the clueless up in arms about something that those who are supposedly violated are yet to give a shit about.

I have NEVER heard someone that was from a culture where piercing is commonplace talk about this so called violation.

Similarly the ONLY people I have ever heard give thier hysterical and obviously judgemental perspective on this have been middle class.

Like I said, be all for women's rights. Just don't centre your 'opinion' when you do, as you'll just look pretty silly to those who you're supposedly advocating on behalf of!

Well given the underlying cause was a heart murmur there is a greater chance I would have become infected as a baby than as a 16 yo. So yes - there is a very good chance I would have died.

What is absolutely indisputable is that having ear pierced is not always a harmless reversible decision.

I still have an additional heart valve leakage issue that is entirely the result of having my ears pierced.

I'm especially amazed to see people say this is a 'personal decision'. Surely personal decisions are things people make that only affect themselves. How can piercing someone else's ears be a personal decision?

Gosh whatamI really does claim to speak for the whole of the world (minus the middle class British).

We are in the presence of greatness.

Lol at the replies "my mate had 5 and regretted it" or "my brother had his done at 18 and regretted it as 40 year old" 🙄

You just prove my point. Your anecdotes couldn't be further away from the OP and subsequent hysteria implying parental GBH.

Please get a fucking grip!

Can you say that bar the very odd exception (because of course one of you will say you have met a vast number of people) MOST (and I'm talking like 98%) women with thier ears pierced, that you have interacted with, give a shiny shit, or view thier parents involvement close to what you're all describing as abuse?

I'm glad mine were done when I was a baby. It meant they healed completely. I've had many piercings, multiple ear, nose, lip, eyebrow, and none of them have remained open the way my ears have. Because they are left for months without initially being interfered with, infection rates are next to non existent.

You'll all sound less judgemental if you spoke of experience of having them as babies yourself. It's so easy to judge a culture when it's not yours, but remember when nobody has asked you to, or complained about a practice, all you are doing is in fact judging.

It doesn't make you sound smart. Just judgemental. That's all! 😉

Had my both my dds ears pierced at 9 month old. Yes they are more for me and the way they look with their cute little outfits (also cultural). It was all done in a clean environment by a professional (not Clare’s). She cringed for like a minute. No issues with keeping them clean either. If my dds don’t like them later on in life they can take them off. If you want a moan about something then I would start a thread on parents who don’t immunise.

Morphene I'm speaking on what I know, through literally never having had this conversation with anyone (I don't think I know a women who doesn't have her ears pierced) or heard anyone other than on MN mention this, not what I have guessed to be a problem, as you are all doing!

I'm still waiting to hear your anecdotes of the women around the world viewing ear piercing as parental abuse???

The irony that your opinion should trump something most people don't complain about, doesn't need my greatness to point out 😉

The examples I cannot find of this being a complaint other than amongst middle class Brit's is my evidence.

I'm here if you want to provide me with yours!

The thing about babies is that they don't complain about things. I mean they also won't remember or complain about being assaulted in any other ways. Does that mean we shouldn't stand up for them?

Really?

Have you been violated if you don't remember it happening?

I think you have.

Its a very minor violation, having your ears pierced without consent...although whether an adult would find it so very minor I don't know. I could imagine it going to court as assault to be honest.

So should people stand by and not question assault unless the person assaulted actually complains?

Again, I don't think so.

Not when it comes to vulnerable people who can't speak for themselves.

I cannot believe it is legal to pierce a baby's ears in this country. A baby isn't obviously in a position to communicate as to whether they would like to have their ears permanently pierced so why should anyone have the right to do that to them? It doesn't benefit the baby in anyway. I still remember getting my ears pierced as a child today and the pain I felt and I look at my little girl and could never put her through that.

I'm not sure that I've ever read more judgemental comments than WhatAmI's last four posts about how judgemental everyone with a different point of view is.

Similarly the ONLY people I have ever heard give thier hysterical and obviously judgemental perspective on this have been middle class

There are a range of opinions on this thread. Are you also presiding over who is therefore middle class and who isn't?

I'm still waiting to hear your anecdotes of the women around the world viewing ear piercing as parental abuse???

I'm not sure that anyone has claimed to have any.

It's so easy to judge a culture when it's not yours

Are you also able to tell which culture various posters are part of?

So you know this isn't an issue because no one you have spoken to has explicitly said its an issue?

Here is a list of some things that no one in RL has ever actually told me has been an issue for them.

FGM
rape
being sexually abused as a child
growing up in poverty
being stopped and searched on the basis of racial profiling

I was going to add circumcision but actually I had a colleague tell me that he hated the fact he had been 'marked for life on the basis of his parents religion' which he didn't share as an adult.

The thing about ethics is that you can have a little think and decide if something is ethical or not based on information alone...you don't have to find someone who has suffered as a result to prove it. As an example I believe it would be unethical to exterminate all white people. Not only has no one ever complained about this happening, but it has actually never happened. And yet, its perfectly possible to reach a reasoned conclusion that it would be unethical.

Many laws and the ethical underpinning of our society indicate that bodily autonomy is an important right. We hold it true now more than ever, that taking liberties with other people's bodies is unethical in general. We no longer have the situation where children are the property of their parents to do what they like with. We have endless rules to safe guard children against injury, abuse and to give them the right to education etc. whether or not their parents would choose that. Allowing parents to elect for cosmetic surgery on their children is severely out of line with the current ethical framework of society.

Oh, and what the fuck is up with knowing no women that don't have ear piercings? Really? Do you work in the fashion/cosmetics industry or something? If you do then you should really declare that conflict of interest in this discussion as your livelihood depends on women being convinced from birth that their main asset is their looks....

I haven't read your replies in full but are you saying that having your ears pierced led to a heart murmur?

Was this indisputably because of the ear piercing? Not hygiene standards causing infection or an infection that you had unknown at the time which unfortunately coincided with the timing of your piercing?

If it was indisputably the act of piercing alone, I apologise for sounding insensitive.

Perhaps your take on a thread like this could be 'this is my experience and people need to consider this' rather than it's child abuse committed by the chavs and the less smart!

I really do take issue with the blanket accusation of parental abuse and the judgement that comes with that.

There are millions of women around the world who have had thier ears pierced as babies, and that have done it to thier own children. If they viewed thier own peircings as abuse they wouldn't continue to do it.

The tone here is that they are too chavy or uneducated to understand what they're doing.

The other side is that a lot of you are to full of your own self importance leading you to fight a cause that is entirely about you feeling superior. Create awareness all you like but if you care about actually helping people you'll want to create awareness without judging!

The reality though is none of these women will actually give a shit what your opinion is.

Again, stand with oppressed women and fight for thier rights. Just don't start with something they're going to laugh at you about.

Literally nobody has asked you to.

...when nobody has asked you to or complained about a practice, all you are doing is judging.

YY WhatAmIMissing.

Morphene, interestingly, because of my culture, I have had people tell me they take issue with all things on your list - bar circumcision.

Including the FGM of my own mother.

As before, it's easy to speak on behalf of those who you think need your opinion, but it's generally smarter to ask them what they want you to speak about and what they actually think.

Otherwise, you end up assuming your own intelligence adds more to the conversationration than peoples lived experience. Which, in its very basic form, is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Unless of course your uproar exists entirely to converse and feel smart amongst your own peers, not to help those who you deem need helping!

Again, my evidence is that I can only find this uproar on MN amongst a group of middle class women. Please feel free to point me to the cases of the children of 'chavs' or the 100's of other cultures around the world who have deemed thier parents ear piercing as child abuse!

Really SheGotBetteDavisEyes, do you consider the posts calling this piercing "tacky" and "chavvy", "child abuse" and equating it with FGM to be judgy?

Dione Again, you seem to be determined to find something in my words that isn't there. I have Not. Said. That.

Can I please ask you to stop trying to assign words and meanings to my posts that are simply not there?

I like how OP blatantly ignores any references made about cultural norms.

I guess I'm from a chavy , tacky culture?!

I wonder how these "baby ear piercing" views impacts on how people view other cultural practices... because something is not your norm/culture doesn't give you the right to put it in a box of the undesirables in society.

Next thing people will be saying we should go and civilise these cultures...

What would your views be in cultures who do scarification on children?

I don't see the problem with it. I had my ears pierced as soon as j was old enough (6 weeks I believe it was nearly 25 years ago).
If I have a daughter, she will have her ears pierced as soon as she is old enough.
I don't see it as being cruel. The younger it's done, the easier it is to get used to. Like I did, they grow up with it and never know any different.
Go ahead, call me a bad parent. Truthfully, your opinions are meaningless to me..

SheGot I can't determine the class of all posters, but I am making an assumption based on the predominant demographic of Mumsnet. Not an 'out there' thing to do all things considered.

Anyone who has likened thier own ear piercing to child abuse and is in fact from a BAME or Chavy group is free to stand up and point out my mistake.

Although, you will probably be waiting for some time!

Dione it's telling when people are more outraged at you calling out offensive terminology, than they are the offensive terminology itself!

SheGot you're actually more offended that I assumed the replies on this thread came from middle class posters that you have been the references to 'chavs'. Your case for pointing me to having the most offensive comment on the post suggests more about you!

god this again.... ears pierced or not, bf or formula, disposables or washables, organic or not, homemade or bought, gay or not gay. fur or no fur, meat or no meat!
DO ANY OF THE CHOICES OTHER PEOPLE MAKE IN THEIR OWN LIVES EFFECT HOW YOU LIVE YOURS?????

glass house pot meet kettle etc etc etc quit judging and live and let live, focus on your own family rather than waste time on pushing your opinion/agenda on anyone else, as they dont give a flying fuck what YOU think!

I find it abhorrent, I overheard discussion at play centre and it was the way it was spoken about like it was non negotiable and had to be done. I looked at the baby in question and felt awful for her. How anyone can maim that perfection I don't know.

Your case for pointing me to having the most offensive comment on the post suggests more about you!

Except, of course, I have not said this. A glance at my actual comments will confirm.

You will find no judgemental comments from me, no matter how hard you look. Quite simply because I don't judge others, even if I disagree with them.

I was interested in a reasoned discussion on a question of ethics and consent, but since everyone is now yelling, swearing and accusing, I guess that's over.

I'm hiding the thread now, as it's pretty much a waste of time from this point, I guess .

Good night all.

I first had my ears pierced at 4. Not my decision, and I remember it being very painful but not traumatising.
Why ears and not face? Perhaps because jewelry on the face alters your appearance drastically, whereas earrings less likely so. Also, it won't be a pain to wash your face.
But why is this question specifically aimed at babies? Even as an adult, I have had my ears pierced again, but not my nose or eyebrows or cheeks. Just not for me and I assume most people and/or parents feel the same.