To not see the big deal with wearing fur

[Itsgonnabeacoldone]

If it's vintage then you aren't really supporting an industry or creating demand for new fur garments.

Some of the comments against Alexandra have been pretty vile. I have an old piano that has ivory, but it's second hand and surely it's better that it's used after being made than just thrown away?

FWIW I know there is a slaughter house that caters to a lot of furred and feathered game and have been told that they just throw away the furs and feathers.

I know there is a whole other argument about whether the animals should be killed in the first place (meat eater here) but to me it seems a real shame that for an animal that was killed anyway for there to be any waste left over if there are uses for it.

I also inherited a fur coat from my grandmother but I gave it to a charity shop because a) Although I loved the feel I didn't want to wear it and b) it was too big for me anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not on board with the fur trade as such but it seems shameful that most of a carcass goes to waste when there are actual uses for the non-meat by products of slaughter.

I do understand that it's a hard one to call though because I wouldn't want animals to be reared (and treated badly - angora rabbits anyone? Truly horrific!) solely for the fur trade and I can see why if we "allowed" fur again it would probably become fashionable again which raises the chances of non-ethical furrier practices.

... sits firmly on the fence again waiting for someone to come along with the answers to life the universe and everything...

Ana It does get cold in the UK. At least it feels cold to us because we're not used to freezing climates. That's relative really, although I agree that it doesn't justify a fur coat. It just doesn't get as cold as other countries.

Sadly shearing sheep is often done under improper conditions making it traumatic for the animals, and it often results in injuries What are these conditions? Sometimes the sheep gets cut just like during shaving. What I object to here is the implication that farmers don't care about this. We do. Cuts are treated with a tar based ointment.

The environmental argument is interesting.
I'm not sure how inhumanely killing an animal is "environmentally friendly"
Population control of non natives I agree with but to make the things suffer because they're in the wrong country is a bit off.
And they didn't swim there did they? Humans moved them there.

Here in the UK our water vole populations have been decimated by the American Mink who are small enough to follow the voles into their burrows. The only reason mink were even in this country was because of the fur trade. Yes some were released by knobhead activists but more just escaped.
And if the fur trade never existed we wouldn't have the sodding mink here in the first place, destroying our native wildlife.

The animals which were used to make the vintage coats are dead and gone, not selling the coat isn't going to bring them back

This is my own position

I wear fur because I happen to like it, but ideally I'd prefer that nothing more is killed than already has been. I accept the point about "normalising" it and perhaps encouraging others to buy newer items, but then they can make their choice and I'll make mine

People going on expeditions tend to have horrifically expensive sponsored gear and it’s a mix of natural and manmade stuff (from friends who work for BAS.)

So its acceptable to abuse animals (most fur comes from countries with little animal welfare legislation) because it is cheaper?
How disgusting.
I take it that you are happy eating battery farmed meat and dairy too because that is also cheaper?
Waiting for a bus is not the same as working or trekking in Arctic conditions.If you wait for more than 5-10 mins regularly I suggest that you get a bus timetable.
Natural fibres does not mean fur.

And to the person who called me a ‘donut’ a) that is not how doughnut is spelt and b)once you become insulting you have lost the argument.

If you lived in Umeå or Kiruna or Yakutsk you might feel quite differently about it

You don't even need to look that far ... I was in Prague last winter and the whole place was absolutely full of the stuff. Interestingly, loads who didn't want (or perhaps couldn't afford?) a whole coat had fur stoles which they wore cuddled round their necks instead

So its acceptable to abuse animals (most fur comes from countries with little animal welfare legislation) because it is cheaper?
How disgusting.
I take it that you are happy eating battery farmed meat and dairy too because that is also cheaper?

Please read back through my previous posts where I state that I see fur the same way as any animal product I consume. That I am more than happy eating meat if it’s from local farms, that I don’t buy battery, I buy from a local farm whose chickens seem extremely with their lot. And I have some certified fur, and some that comes from a known humane trapped source.

You misunderstand the point about cheapness. Fur is not, and should not, be cheap. My point is that not many people dress like an arctic explorer. To work at BAS you dress in about five or six layers of highly technical and specialised clothing (there’s a link on their website) that altogether costs thousands. This is not gear you can easily obtain nor would it be suitable for life in a cold climate day to day. You couldn’t dive easily in it nor could you go in and out of heated buildings and remain comfortable. It ain’t just ‘a nice big coat’ these people wear - it’s five of six layers of stuff. It’s too expensive and more to he point too impractical for general life.

Where I live (and I believe where some of the other posters here originate from or live now) you need a different way of dressing. Fur is practical. Sheepskin is, wool is, down is.

As for the abusing comment - use is not abuse. Many animals are used by us. They should be used, or frankly all the pigs, sheep and goats would be extinct because they aren’t kept for fun. All animals used in meat/wool/fur/egg production should be kept to high standards of welfare, and pressing for those standards to be raised is a duty we all have, and why I buy more expensive meat and milk.

I also did not call you a glazed bakery product of any kind.

This is how field staff at BAS dress, by the way.

I’m not sure it’s terribly suitable for day to day life (imagine the sweat you’d work up going into Hemköp..)

Exactly, you need something you can take off quickly and easily but is still very warm for everyday life in cold climates and fur, wool, and down fit the bill for that.

We have an alpaca farm near me which produces small (and very expensive!) quantities of the softest warmest wool and those alpacas live a lovely happy life, I have visited the farm many times and seen it myself.

what if it’s -35? Or -40? Have any of you experienced living in that kind of climate?

I have and have never worn fur, nor has anyone I know apart from my Grandmother who had a fur coat.

Next!

Ana It does get cold in the UK.

Ha ha ha—no, it really does not.

Yolo.

I do care about the conditions in the meat and dairy industries. I don't have to be vegan to care (although I am). There is no inconsistency. The fur industry is, in my and most people's views, significantly crueller. Which isnt to say other form of cruelty aren't important. The OP is posting about fur not the meat industry.

I don't agree with wearing something as a fashion statement. I also wonder how many people who are happy to dress in fur coats have a dog, cat or rabbit at home. Think about that. It's cruel and unnecessary especially in UK where it's never really cold and there are good fake fur coats. Sick of celebrities anyway. I agree they just jump on bandwagons ie the PETA campaign in order to get their faces in the media. Fur looks better on the animal who was intended to wear it.

EyeSaid has summed it all up very well.

I would like to add that it is simply vulgar and disrespectful to other living creatures to proudly display the coats that have beeen ripped from them, simply for the sake of fashion. This is in a different league altogether to eating animals for health and sustenance.

And the idea that "you need fur if it's cold" is a BS argument. As I said I have lived in -50 in January and never worn fur.

"you need fur if it's cold"

Most of the people wearing fur in places like alaska take the fur and skins from animals they have killed for food so there is no waste.

Ana It does get cold in the UK. At least it feels cold to us because we're not used to freezing climates

It really doesn't.

And people who live in -40 don't magically grow a thick skin and become "used" to the cold, they just wrap up bloody warm! Often with fur.

As someone said upthread, the PETA videos are of very dubious origin.

So is there a solution to dressing for proper cold weather ethically? I have been looking for a coat and deliberately avoiding down for animal welfare reasons, however (idiot that I am), hadn't properly considered the environmental impact of synthetic. If I'm going to weigh up the two, the lesser evil in terms of long term impact is going to be down (2nd hand moncler better than new?) but that still perpetuates the "if it's popular, it must be ok"

And an aside on something which hasn't been touched on yet is how exotic skins are "farmed" - it is utterly barbaric - reptiles massively swollen with water while alive to stretch the skin and make it easier to remove and then flayed alive. Horrible.
I come from a home where my mother regularly wore mink, sable, lynx, silver fox. Lots of fur coats, jackets and hats that I refused to take from her and now think that wearing fur is demonstrative of some kind of psychopathy

(Silk? I have a silk duvet but don't see silk puffas? Anyone know a brand that does them?

That is not how angora is produced in any humane way.

I’ve been to an angora place in Nz. They gently stretch out the bunnies and comb the fur off. I’ve got pics of it somewhere.., the rabbit fell asleep during the process. They are diva princess bunnies because their fur is so precious they have to be kept clean.

PETA are extremists.

Ana It does get cold in the UK. At least it feels cold to us because we're not used to freezing climates

I’m from the uk. The north of it. It gets parky. But you can not compare to months on end of seriously cold weather. The coldest I’ve ever experienced in Britain was -24 up near aviemore one winter. That was exceptional. It rarely gets below -10 in the uk and fur isn’t a great option for wet and cold there - you’re much better off with a technical fabric mac. Where I live, you need wool and down or you’re getting very cold indeed.

If fur is farmed humanely it’s not different to meat or leather. If you choose not to eat meat, that’s fine. If you choose to eschew all animal products, also fine. I personally am ok with eating and using animals - as long as they have been kept to high standards. You might as well use all the bits.

So is there a solution to dressing for proper cold weather ethically?

Well, there’s down and down as well. Some is better than others. Supply chain checking is important. I have a long down and fur parka which was ethically labelled (and is now many years old so I don’t have the labels unfortunately.)
Under that I have layers - always wool thermals on. I sew my own from thin merino wool jersey I know is ethically sourced but you can buy ethical merino ready to wear. You’re looking for non mulesing sources and preferably being able to see which farm it came from. NZ or Finnish origin tends to be most clean.
Mid layers, again I often make my own and usually merino, or a hand knitted sweater. Avoid polarfleece, it’s plastic, sweaty and horrible for then environment.

Hands and feet again wool is your friend. Just check where it’s sourced. Boots - more tricky. Mine are leather and wool. You can get synthetic insulated boots of course. The kavat brand in Sweden is ethically produced here.

Hats - knitted pure wool is good for down to quite cold. Especially if it’s multi layered (fair isle knit lined with jersey.) for when it’s super cold I have a fur hat, but I accept that’s not for everyone.

Good retailers should have an ethics statement on their website.

austentatious my personal view is to ideally find ethically sourced down/animal based fibres first. But if that's hard to do I'd still choose which a down jacket over a synthetic because it lasts so much longer. In terms of an overall environmental impact I think that's better. I am still wearing down and wool products that I've owned for 10 years, no synthetics have stood up to wear like that.

I aim to reduce, reuse, recycle. I believe there's less overall environmental harm in choosing something that lasts many years, even if I can't be 100% certain it was humanely sourced.

I think in the future we will all be wearing more animal fibres as we transition out of an oil based economy.

Good guidance above there ^

Cosytoes is a reasonably priced NZ seller of merino wool items for adults and children. Watch out for customs charges though! Icebreaker is fabulous but more expensive. The wool is from NZ but made in china.