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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

School and religion

316 replies

ThisLittleKitty · 28/11/2017 23:06

Is it normal for a school (not a faith school) to teach children about Jesus? My son came home today telling me he had been told about "baby Jesus" and how he was "born on Christmas Day" I'm a little surprised by this as didn't realise the school would be saying this kind of thing. It's a very diverse school in south east london so many religions and we are not a religious family. Aibu to think this is not right?

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisLittleKitty · 08/12/2017 11:26

Thank you. I'm glad some people understand what I am saying (not very good at wording it) I don't mind him learning religion just not that it's a fact. Which is clearly how it's being taught. He can learn about all religions fairly (and was in reception and was never taught about eid or Ramadan) but that obviously isn't happening. I don't know anyone who is Christian at all.

OP posts:
Hausfrauenvy · 08/12/2017 11:33

Couldnt read the full thread as this
"baby Jesus was born on Christmas Day" is inappropriate IMO"
Just floored me.
Its fine not to be religious. That doesnt meam discussing religion is not appropriate. When your child tells you these religious facts, you can do exactlt what we hope the teacher does and say some people believe that but you're free to make your own mind up

Its working well for my kids, and millions of others.

Hope you're not buying them a christmas present since its all so inappropriate.

IamAporcupine · 08/12/2017 12:05

We are all expected to take a 5 yr old's translation of a lesson as gospel.

Not sure why people are minimising this? Surely, that is exactly the point? In a way, it does not actually matter what exact words the teacher used, the fact that most 5yo 'traslate' these lessons as true facts, probably means that teachers should make it even more clear they are only beliefs and that not everyone believes them.

BertrandRussell · 08/12/2017 12:14

"When your child tells you these religious facts, you can do exactlt what we hope the teacher does and say some people believe that but you're free to make your own mind up"
That's what I want teachers to do when they are discussing all faiths. "This is what some people believe" The problem is that many teachers forget to add that caveat when talking about Christianity.

GreenTulips · 08/12/2017 12:22

Which is clearly how it's being taugh

On the basis that your 5 year old said so?

What about all the images in TV in books, Christmas songs etc all giving the message about Jesus?

You can excuse him but that means all art lessons, nativity play, carol converts etc will leave him in a corridor while they practice

PatriarchyPersonified · 08/12/2017 12:34

I would say that learning about religions, particularly the major religions is critical to developing well rounded children. Given our national history, a focus on Christianity is probably appropriate to equip them with the basic knowledge of why some things are the way they are (What churches are for, who this Jesus guy was claimed to be etc).

As they get older a knowledge of the Bible is really important in understanding some of the information they get taught at secondary school, particularly in subjects like History and English Literature. (Equally if a child is brought up in an Islamic Culture, a knowledge of the Quran would be important for them to understand the context of their own cultural history and practices)

The problem comes when any of this is taught as fact, rather than put into the context of religious belief. I don't think many schools teach it as fact to be fair, although I'm aware some faith schools absolutely do. This is wrong in my opinion. The faith school point is a separate issue though so I don't want to derail the thread.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 08/12/2017 12:36

There are a number of south east London boroughs so I've picked the largest which is Bromley. This is what is being taught in community schools at Key stages 1to 3 cds.bromley.gov.uk/documents/s50015346/Bromley%20Agreed%20Syllabus%20for%20Religious%20Education%202013.pdf

At no stage is Christianity or Islam or Hinduism or any of the other religions taught as fact according to this syllabus. If the OP is concerned that fundamentalism is being taught then it certainly is worth talking to the school about it.

BertrandRussell · 08/12/2017 12:37

GreenTulips-all anyone is asking is that teachers use the "some people believe" formula. Many of them do not do this when it comes to Christianity. You very rarely hear of children coming out of school convinced that Bhrama created the universe and Vishnu protects it. Which shows that it perfectly possible to teach about faith.....

CakesRUs · 08/12/2017 12:41

I'm an atheist, my niece goes to a catholic school. When she comes home singing about "God put the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky", I have to bite my lip.

I don't mind religion being discussed in school, I do mind faith schools that push it to another level.

Originalfoogirl · 08/12/2017 12:44

I think most understand that you don't want it taught as fact. What you're refusing to accept is how your son relayed it to you is likely not totally accurate and there is a very good chance that it was delivered as "some people believe" in the same way it already has about other religions. You never did tell us whether you were so incensed when he learned about Diwali (which has happened since he started School)

Original poster
ThisLittleKitty · 08/12/2017 12:54

Diwali didn't bother me as like I said he didn't come out with much to say about it other than it was Diwali today. He has been very vocal on Christmas and Jesus and is still going on about Jesus now and how I "don't know him". We are not in Bromley (Bromley is in Kent)

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 08/12/2017 13:12

"there is a very good chance that it was delivered as "some people believe" in the same way it already has about other religions."
I have no idea what happened at the OP's school. But there are many examples of non faith state schools where Christianity is treated very differently to other faiths.

WhatALoadOfOldBollocks · 08/12/2017 16:19

To the posters saying it's no big deal because a 5 year old is probably just misunderstanding, and that the teacher probably isn't teaching religion as fact, it's not really the point. When children interpret it as fact, even if the teachers are saying it's just a theory or belief, there's a problem somewhere along the line.

C8H10N4O2 · 08/12/2017 19:07

I don't think people are saying its no big deal so much as advising checking the facts rather than assuming the teacher has done something wrong based on the interpretation of a five year old. Especially if you are predisposed to think negatively of the school.

The other issue with Christianity in particular is separating what is taught in school from what is learned from peers, books, tv and everywhere else as its still a dominant cultural reference. A teacher may tell the story as what some people believe but if peers and others say its real that will also have an influence.

Spottytop1 · 08/12/2017 19:24

All you need to say is "Yes that is what Christians believe, but we aren't Christians"

Christmascardqueen · 08/12/2017 19:39

spotty....i'm Christian and I don't believe he was born on Christmas day...and honestly doubt many do...it's when his birthday is celebrated...

mashpot · 08/12/2017 19:50

Spottytop has nailed our approach - this is something that Christian’s believe, we don’t believe in this religion. I don’t have any problem with my kids learning about different religions even though I am aetheist, they may choose to be religious in their own time.

Our school is also in SE London and they do definitely learn about other religions than Christianity. I am unaware of there being religious element to assemblies though?

Spottytop1 · 09/12/2017 06:45

Christmascard I used it as a way for OP to explain to their child, not about your personal belief about whether Jesus was,or was not born at Christmas. It is what the celebration of Christmas is linked to - baby Jesus born in a stable...

Op is concerned their child is taking a lesson on Christian celebrations/beliefs as fact when they do not believe, so the suggestion was an easy way to explain.

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2017 07:02

"All you need to say is "Yes that is what Christians believe, but we aren't Christians""

But the school should have said the "Some people believe....."about Christianity in the way they do about other faiths.

paniconthestreetsofdreams · 09/12/2017 07:05

Hmmffs

I would HATE to be your child's teacher

LucyLastik · 09/12/2017 07:16

Bromley itself may be in Kent but it is a London borough and some of the places in the borough are in London (Penge/Anerley).

I teach in a Bromley borough school so that link was useful to me, so thanks!

speakout · 09/12/2017 07:25

Schools have a legal right- in fact an obligation to indoctrinate.

My kids primary ( so called non faith) had daily prayers, a " table of gods creation" ( nature table) , regular readings from, the bible, parables and stories, a religious assembly where local clergy often led a section.

My DD thought the story of Noah's ark was a history lesson.

I hate having religion in schools.

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2017 07:28

"Schools have a legal right- in fact an obligation to indoctrinate."

Actually, that's not quite right. The statutory obligation is to provide a daily act of collective worship "broadly Christian in nature"

Many schools take this much further, but they are not obliged to.

Fink · 09/12/2017 07:31

a) I'm not sure what you think the factual problem is with stating Christmas celebrates Jesus's birth. Of course we have no idea what day he was born, but a 5 year old isn't going to grasp that then 'Jesus was born on Christmas day ' imo is an acceptable substitute for 'Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus' until they're old enough to cope with the idea of a date being almost randomly chosen because the real date isn't known. Other than that, what's the factual problem? Jesus was born at some point, Christmas is a celebration of this. None of that goes into beliefs like 'Jesus is the son of God', 'Jesus saves us from our sins' etc. How could you consider the fact of what Christmas is to be an opinion?

b) Totally up to you if you want to withdraw your dc from collective worship, but as a former teacher I would suggest you at least then teach them about it at home in your own words. I am appalled by the number of teenagers who have no knowledge of some of the really basic background to our culture and literature. I'm talking about Year 11s who have never heard of Adam and Eve or any part of the Judaeo-Christian creation story (would be useful when studying Paradise Lost, which they were), or wasted lessons in sixth form where you have to teach a KS1 level understanding of what a Christian is so that they can access the history curriculum. By all means don't let your children do this at school if you don't like the way it's delivered but you'd be doing them a great disservice if you then didn't teach it at home either.

speakout · 09/12/2017 07:37

The statutory obligation is to provide a daily act of collective worship "broadly Christian in nature"

Bertrand- to me that is indoctrination.

And what is wrong with this law is that it is open to interpretation.

Some schools- like ours- have a rabidly christian head, makes sure most of the staff are christian so his ethos is bolstered.

And I don't buy this "some people believe" stuff.

I'm not sure all children really understand what that means.
In the case of my kids' experience- they were given bible teachings by a christian teacher- why wouldn't they think it's true if the teacher tells them so.
Teachers are trusted, children respect them, if a teacher tells them that she believes god is real but not everyone does - then what is a 5 year old to think? Of could they will accept the teachers view.

Religion should keep its dirty tendrils away from schools.