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AIBU?

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Original poster

School and religion

316 replies

ThisLittleKitty · 28/11/2017 23:06

Is it normal for a school (not a faith school) to teach children about Jesus? My son came home today telling me he had been told about "baby Jesus" and how he was "born on Christmas Day" I'm a little surprised by this as didn't realise the school would be saying this kind of thing. It's a very diverse school in south east london so many religions and we are not a religious family. Aibu to think this is not right?

OP posts:
speakout · 10/12/2017 08:32

It is not NI nor any "tribal " part of Scotland.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 10/12/2017 08:55

It is still very unusual. No wonder you are so anti religion.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 10/12/2017 09:01

In the last town I worked in baptism was the marker that showed you were a respectable family living in the big estates. It didn't turn into church attendance but it was very much there. Being an atheist or of no religion was a marker for another tribe. It meant that I had some interesting baptisms where those who had moved out had acquired a sneering attitude towards religion and would openly mock their families choice to get the baby 'done.'

Macaroni46 · 10/12/2017 09:17

Mishapoening - schools do say some people believe . Well certainly that's what we say at my school

Esker · 10/12/2017 09:23

I think it's right for schools to introduce ideas from the major religions, to give children an understanding of the cultural context that they live in, and the teaching that informs the backdrop of civilisation as we know it. I expect that schools do preface teaching with things like 'Christians believe that the baby Jesus was born in Bethlehem', however I think the subtleties of who believes what are easily lost on small children, so they recount stories they have been told as fact.

As an English teacher (secondary), I am sorry to say that children who don't have at least a basic working knowledge of Christianity are very disadvantaged when in comes to studying most of western literature. This may be wrong, but it is certainly a fact. It means that children from (Christian) faith schools tend to have an advantage when it comes to anything like Shakespeare, as they are able to pick up on imagery and allusions that pass other students by.

speakout · 10/12/2017 09:40

greenheart

No wonder you are so anti religion.

It's actually one of the minor reasons I hate religion.

BertrandRussell · 10/12/2017 09:59

I find it completely baffling that so many people seem unable to differentiate between learning about different religions and being taught that a specific one is true. And that people who don't want the latter to happen are very happy for the former to.

cantkeepawayforever · 10/12/2017 10:41

I haven't seen ANY teachers on here saying that they DO teach any religion as 'undisputed fact'.

As I said before, we teach the Nativity / Easter (as well as key stories from other faiths) etc as 'Christians believe that... here is the story' and have never had any complaints.

Equally, I refer to evolution as 'the theory of evolution' and the Big Bang as 'the Big Bang theory', and explain quite carefully what scientists (of which I am one, by background) mean by 'theory'.

I would also like to teach Father Christmas / Easter Bunny / Tooth Fairy as 'some people believe that.....' but rather bizarrely that is what would prompt complaints.

LoniceraJaponica · 10/12/2017 10:49

"however I think the subtleties of who believes what are easily lost on small children, so they recount stories they have been told as fact."

I agree with this ^^

"I find it completely baffling that so many people seem unable to differentiate between learning about different religions and being taught that a specific one is true."

And this ^^

cantkeepawayforever · 10/12/2017 10:54

Lonicera, I agree. 5 year olds who can easily be superheroes, cats, trains or unicorns for entire days at a time are unlikely to understand the careful 'some people believe' placed before the stories they are read (or the story then enact in play form) in December.

That doesn't mean that the teachers are indoctrinating them, or 'teaching them that the story is true', just that the lines between 'truth' and 'make believe' and 'story' are rather fuzzy at that age for the children, however clear the adults are!

LoniceraJaponica · 10/12/2017 10:57

That's why I get irritated by posters who think their children are being indoctrinated, because I don't believe they are. I think the parents need to ask the teachers what they are saying to the children. I bet they get a different story.

yomellamoHelly · 10/12/2017 10:57

You just have to balance all these kind of statements out with your view of the world. I would always "correct" it with "yes, some people do believe that ....... but ......." when the dc spouted this kind of stuff. (It gets worse at Easter. Actually made my reception aged eldest cry.)

iam16goingon17 · 10/12/2017 11:00

I'm Catholic and I can see both sides. Maybe if the teacher had said, "Christmas is a special time to some people (ie. Christians), because they believe that's when Jesus was born" it wouldn't have sounded like literal historical fact which it isn't .

Also I agree with Esker - I was well versed in Children's Bible stories as a child and it really stood by me during my A-levels in English/Music. Jane Eyre for example has lots of religious references.

Parker231 · 10/12/2017 11:07

iam16goingon17 - your comment “Christmas is a special time to some people (ie Christians), because they believe that’s when Jesus was born “ - not true. I’m not a Christian but Christmas is a very special time to me - party time, presents, family visits etc. Jesus has nothing to be with Christmas being special for a large number of the population.

BertrandRussell · 10/12/2017 11:12

" I think the parents need to ask the teachers what they are saying to the children. I bet they get a different story"
Well, if this is the case, I would love to know why children never come out of school quoting the precepts of any other religion as fact.......

C8H10N4O2 · 10/12/2017 11:16

Has anyone on this thread actually had their children taught that baby Jesus was in fact a deity in Yr1, in a non faith school? Or is everyone going on the interpretation of 5 yr olds?
I've honestly not come across it but I've heard a lot of 5yr olds telling me X as fact when they have been told it as a story.

Any takers?

speakout · 10/12/2017 11:33

Yes my children have been taught that.

As well as having to sing these horrible songs " Jesus is my Superhero" and the like.

BertrandRussell · 10/12/2017 11:38

The problem is that if they absorb it as fact it doesn't actually matter whether the teacher intended them to or not-there is obviously something wrong with their "Some people believe" script.. And nobody has answered my question-why do they absorb the Christian narrative as fact but not the Hindu or Muslim narratives

speakout · 10/12/2017 11:44

Exactly Bertrand.

It makes me question whether it is possible for a religious teacher to deliver RE objectively.

I was a parent helper for many years in our local primary.

Most of the staff were religious.

I remember one P1 teacher in particular who simply could not help herself.

She would look out of the window and say" Oh look children, the sun is shining, isn't god wonderful"
The whole of the school day was peppered with such comments.

grannytomine · 10/12/2017 11:50

Bell times are staggered to prevent spilling crowds of students occupying street space at the same time. This happened where I went to school, I was at the girls grammar, nextdoor was the boys grammar, across the field the mixed secondary. We all left at different times and started the day at different times, nothing to do with religion as all were non denominational. There was often a "grudge match" type thing between the grammar and secondary kids but I assume there was a straightforward logistical thing with close to 3 thousand kids leaving at the same time and the chaos it would have caused.

I was mightily fed up that the girls grammar finished school last and started earlier than the secondary. I think we had a slightly longer lunch break or something but if you had an hour's journey, like I did, it made it a long day and we were always at the back of the queue for buses. I can't blame religion though.

grannytomine · 10/12/2017 11:54

And nobody has answered my question-why do they absorb the Christian narrative as fact but not the Hindu or Muslim narratives Muslim children in my family don't absorb the Christian narrative as fact but they do absorb the Muslim narrative as fact so even if a family isn't Christian maybe there is something cultural influencing it?

I help out at a local primary and I definitely hear the teachers saying, "Some people believe" and they say it about all the religions. I can't swear for all teachers and I have heard a TA saying it was true but to be honest I don't think she should have been doing her job for several reasons and fortunately she no longer works there.

grannytomine · 10/12/2017 11:56

Actually thinking about one of my Muslim family members has had to correct a teacher about what Islam teaches, much like my DD did with what she was taught about Catholic teaching. I wonder how many of us think we know something about another faith that is in fact incorrect because the teacher got it wrong?

Itchytights · 10/12/2017 11:59

YABU

BertrandRussell · 10/12/2017 12:00

Presumably the Muslim children in your family absorbed the Muslim narrative at home as well? I am talking about children who have the "some people believe....." at home but come out of school with Christian doctrines. Why the Christian ones?

Yourownpersonaljesus · 10/12/2017 12:04

After telling my year one class the nativity story and reiterating at the end (as I had before I told the story) that this is a story that Christians believe/ tell one of the boys said "I believe it". I replied "that's fine, some people believe it and some people don't". I'm sure this would be how most teachers would react. I would not always trust a 5 year old to remember exactly what was said. I would never teach religion as fact and I'm sure that's the case for most (though it should be all) teachers.

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