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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

School and religion

316 replies

ThisLittleKitty · 28/11/2017 23:06

Is it normal for a school (not a faith school) to teach children about Jesus? My son came home today telling me he had been told about "baby Jesus" and how he was "born on Christmas Day" I'm a little surprised by this as didn't realise the school would be saying this kind of thing. It's a very diverse school in south east london so many religions and we are not a religious family. Aibu to think this is not right?

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 09/12/2017 14:16

Father Christmas is relevant, because if the OP's objection is 'a myth being presented as fact', then if OP themselves present FC as fact, then the objection to a school doing the same is at best spurious.

Celebrating Christmas is relevant, because if you genuinely have no belief whatever in Christianity, then there is no more reason to celebrate Christmas and Easter than Eid or Hannukah - so you can either celebrate all festivals of all religions, or none.

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2017 14:17

Speak out- you must stop at once. Only Christians are allowed to celebrate Christmas. I think that cuts my Christmas dinner guests down from 11 to 4, so much easier and cheaper all round..........

cantkeepawayforever · 09/12/2017 14:18

Speakout,

If you are not a Christian, then Easter has no meaning, so there is no more need for Easter eggs than there would be for lighting a Shabbat candle or using a prayer mat pointing towards Mecca. If you don't do the last 2, then why would you eat Easter eggs?

cantkeepawayforever · 09/12/2017 14:19

Bert,

I am genuinely curious - so why is 25th December special, in any way, then? If you have no belief whatever in the underpinning reason why Christmas is celebrated, why do you have anything to celebrate on that date? Why not celebrate on 18th November, or 3rd February?

cantkeepawayforever · 09/12/2017 14:21

Logically, you choose to have a celebration on the festival of one particular religion - but not the festival days of others. Why? If you don't believe in any of them, why does the christian festival get chosen by you and your family?

C8H10N4O2 · 09/12/2017 14:22

To say that the "real" Santa is a christian figure is misleading.

Well strictly speaking Santa and Father Christmas have to very different origins, even though the terms are used as if they are the same personification.

Has anyone on this thread actually had their children taught that baby Jesus was in fact a deity in Yr1, in a non faith school? Or is everyone going on the interpretation of 5 yr olds?

I've honestly not come across it but I've heard a lot of 5yr olds telling me X as fact when they have been told it as a story.

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2017 14:22

This is the only context where Christians don't get pissed off if you equate God and Father Christmas! Grin.

We live in a culture where Christmas is celebrated. I come from a culture where Christian festivals are celebrated. Atheists from Muslim backgtounds celebrate Eid. Atheists from Hindu backgrounds celebrate Duvali.it's really not hard to grasp!

Ta1kinPeace · 09/12/2017 14:23

cantkeep
so why is 25th December special, in any way, then?
Do you know why 25th December was settled on as the date of Jesus' birth ?

It is because then Christianity could piggy back on the big Winter Solstice festivals that already existed across northern Europe.

So I regard the 25th as a slightly late winter solstice meal Grin

cantkeepawayforever · 09/12/2017 14:25

So you are happy to continue to celebrate a festival with Christian origins, despite having no belief whatever in the origins......ok.....backs away slowly.....

You can of course see that's a wholly illogical position?

cantkeepawayforever · 09/12/2017 14:26

So I regard the 25th as a slightly late winter solstice meal

That is intellectually consistent. Celebrating it 'because I am from a Christian country and ... em...well....we've always done it....' is not.

C8H10N4O2 · 09/12/2017 14:26

so why is 25th December special, in any way

Most seasonal countries have seasonal festivals, including large festivals for midwinter and the coming of Spring. Religions reuse established slots but there is no reason why you need religion for a community to celebrate midwinter passing or the coming of Spring.

Festivals and celebrations occur across all human societies, not just due to religion

Ta1kinPeace · 09/12/2017 14:31

Cantkeep
Knowing the history of the Winter Festival dates -and of the spring festival dates
means that I have no ethical dilemma at all about celebrating the turning of the seasons with feasting and friends and family.

I happen to love carol concerts because they are a good old sing song with mulled wine
but stopped believing a word of the Christian stuff just before I got confirmed.

cantkeepawayforever · 09/12/2017 14:35

to celebrate midwinter passing

Absolutely. I have no problem with families getting together to celebrate midwinter passing / the Winter Solstice / the turning of the seasons.

However, when you say that 'you celebrate Christmas', that's what I don't understand. Christmas is the festival celebrating the birth of Christ.

bigbluebus · 09/12/2017 14:39

Where I live, every single Primary school in the area is either CofE controlled or Voluntary aided. There is absolutely no option to go to a non-denominational school unless you go private - and even then there is only one private school for 4-11 within 15 miles.

We live in a predominantly Christian country , of course the birth of Jesus is taught. But it should be taught as "Christians believe that......." rather than fact. But don't worry OP, my DS went to a CofE school and listened to it all, took part in Nativities and Carol concerts etc and left at age 11 declaring that "it's all a big fairy tale for grown-ups" inspite of having a Catholic mother and a CofE father(although non practicing)

LoniceraJaponica · 09/12/2017 14:53

“Why not just say, Yes, Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on 25th Dec as they don't know when he was really born. They believe he was the son of God and that's why they celebrate Christmas. However I don't believe that, which is why we just do the fun bits of Christmas to cheer up winter, like presents and seeing family.”

That is an excellent answer TeenTimesTwo

“I don't mind him learning religion just not that it's a fact. Which is clearly how it's being taught”

How do you know? This is a 5 year old’s perception of it. Why don’t you ask the teacher how it was taught?

“When children interpret it as fact, even if the teachers are saying it's just a theory or belief, there's a problem somewhere along the line.”

Children interpret all sorts of stuff the wrong way. For instance they might be told it might snow tomorrow and they will think that it will snow tomorrow.

And what is it with all this “indoctrination” stuff? Clearly it isn’t working as we are mostly a nation of atheists (or agnostics)

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2017 14:55

"However, when you say that 'you celebrate Christmas', that's what I don't understand. Christmas is the festival celebrating the birth of Christ."

Yes, I know it is. It is also a cultural holiday in this country. Obviously I could decide to celebrate midwinter or whatever on another day. But it is much more convenient to celebrate when most other people are. What with schools being closed, good telly and all the rest.

Parker231 · 09/12/2017 14:59

We’re a non believing family but celebrate Christmas and Easter in a big way - they are times for the family to get together, lots of parties, time off work, special food and drinks and lots of presents. Father Christmas and Easter eggs were a big part of my DC’s childhood.

speakout · 09/12/2017 15:05

cantkeep If you are not a Christian, then Easter has no meaning,

How arrogant.

Yes christmas has the word christ in it, but that doesn't mean it has been fully claimed by the church.
You choose to celebrate Easter ( Oestre) - a pagan festival. If the name is so important then why celebrate Easter if you are a christian.

Or indeed accept Thursday because it is named after a norse god.

I am happy to celebrate christmas and like the majority enjoy a jesus free christmas complete with tree, stockings, reindeer, Santa, mistletoe. holly, feasting and all the other lovely secular and pagan things that we all enjoy at that time of year.

Christmas was banned in the UK for a while by the church and in Scotland people were arrested for having festivities as it was deemed a pagan festival.

Nope, sorry the church hasn't quite claimed christmas as firmly as it would like.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 09/12/2017 15:09

Christians get ever so upset if Jesus and Santa appear on the same page, never mind the same sentence!

Some christians do im sure...not all obviously

cantkeepawayforever · 09/12/2017 15:31

So, just to check, as a teacher:

You are happy for me to say (as I do)
'Some people believe that Jesus was born in a stable...(etc). The story, often called the Nativity, is....'

and so you are also happy for me to say
' Some people believe that Father Christmas, also called Santa, delivers presents on the night before Christmas. The story is....'

LoniceraJaponica · 09/12/2017 15:34

cantkeepawayforever Grin

Original poster
ThisLittleKitty · 09/12/2017 15:38

I haven't told my children Santa is real or Father Christmas or whatever. I was a single parent from day one they were always with me and seen me buy them presents. Not that I planned on saying it was Santa anyway but they've known from the beginning.

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 09/12/2017 15:38

With older children, of course, I also look at the different versions of the Nativity story in the different gospels and discuss what the writer is trying to tell the reader about Jesus - and also look at different versions of Father Christmas / Santa / St Nicholas around the world and talk about how and why they are different, as well as looking at the pagan origins of many of our 'Christmas' traditions, and how 'Christmas' traditions vary around the Christian world.

I have to say I have encountered MUCH more difficulty from parents horrified that I might represent Father Christmas as 'a story / myth' than that I do exactly the same with the story of Christmas as told in the Bible......

Christmascardqueen · 09/12/2017 17:17

When I read threads like this it makes me so pleased that my catholic school upbringing was “Christian lite” honestly never taught any of the stories were “fact”. I’m in Canada, have lived in 3 provinces and I wonder if Christianity is taught differently in the UK.

DarlesChickens61 · 09/12/2017 17:53

For what it’s worth my children were educated within Catholic Schools. As a family we are not Catholic.

Both failed their GSCE RE exams (They didn’t see RE as an important subject and we supported them in this). I cannot see why posters maintain that schools teach Christianity as “fact”.

Saying that we all enjoy Christmas. Btw I didn’t need to tell them Santa isn’t real. They worked it out for themselves - pretty much like Bible stories. Children are more astute than we give them credit for...