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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if you murder your partner, you should be considered to be dumped?

103 replies

BalloonSlayer · 24/11/2017 22:04

From BBC website:

A South African court has increased Olympic athlete Oscar Pistorius's jail sentence for killing his girlfriend to 13 years and five months.

How about "Murderer of Reeva Steenkamp has his sentence doubled."

I mean, do they think that if for some reason Reeva hadn't been killed that they would still be together?

How bloody dare they call her his girlfriend?

His girlfriend = 14 characters
Reeva Steencamp = 15 characters

OP posts:
AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:01

I personally don't think referring to her as his girlfriend is offensive as it goes a long way to subtly 'suggest' it was domestic violence. Just mention her name and, maybe it was as the case was found to be, that he just murdered someone unknown.

coconuttella · 25/11/2017 00:01

When he killed her, she was still his girlfriend. So, he killed his girlfriend. The headline is correct.

^
This. No one could seriously this she is still his girlfriend... she’s dead ffs! To get het up about this is ridiculous!

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:03

5 shots with the type of bullets he was using and the experience of guns he had, he knew whoever was in there was going to die.

The verdict is that he intended to murder whoever was in the toilet. The verdict on appeal.

I know what I think. He knew who was in the toilet and murdered her. Just my thoughts after watching the entire trial.

Chrys2017 · 25/11/2017 00:11

@AlongStoryShort Thanks for the clarification. That has puzzled me ever since the trial.
I thought it was plausible that he might not have known Reeva was in the bathroom.

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:13

Well the verdict agrees with you. That he didn't know it was Reeva in the toilet.

Cel982 · 25/11/2017 00:15

EltonJohn is right. Intimate partner violence needs to be called out every time it happens. Was reading a report today which found that (here in Ireland, anyway) men convicted of manslaughter of their partners serve an average of three years less prison time than men convicted of killing a stranger. IPV is already trivialised; not making the relationship explicit in a case like this would be wrong. Would be better if her name had been used as well, though.

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:17

Wow, that's disturbing Cel. So the same crime, and you get less because they're you're partner?

Chrys2017 · 25/11/2017 00:18

@AlongStoryShort What would the verdict have been if he HAD known it was Reeva? (Since he was convicted of murder anyway...?)

CakesRUs · 25/11/2017 00:25

It's annoying, but it shows that he was emotionally attached to her, which is even worse than a random person (which is despicable also).

I hate, when there's been a terrorist attack, "5 dead, including assailant" he has no right to be in that number, to be one of them. It should be "4 dead, murderer also killed".

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:28

I honestly don't know. It would have been easier for her family to swallow though if it had been found that he had intended to murder her.
Not sure whether murdering an unknown or a known makes a difference in SA law.
As far as his verdict is though, he didn't know it was her in there. That's all we have to go on. Whatever the rest of us think, that's what was found in a court of law.

Battleax · 25/11/2017 00:29

I think YareBU actually, because they were a couple at her death, she trusted him, he betrayed that trust, she'll never get the chance to dump him. It's the absolute worst kind of DV we're always warning and being warned about. Those are aggravating details of a horrible crime and I don't want it sanitised.

Battleax · 25/11/2017 00:32

Ah sorry, skipped to the end. Elton's covered all that. She's spot on.

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:34

Initial verdict (a joke) was that not only that he didn't know who was in the toilet, that he didn't know that the shots would kill/intend to kill. He just reacted blah etc out of fear and vulnerability.

I live in a country where guns are rarities. But if I was scared, as he claimed he was (large part of his defence was how vulnerable he was) and armed, I'd surely have fired a warning shot? Not shot 5 bullets into a tiny space?

In my humble opinion, he knew exactly who was in there and shot to kill. Not the verdict found, but courts don't always get it right. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll never really know.

Winebottle · 25/11/2017 00:38

There is nothing wrong with saying girlfriend. The relationship between the murderer and the victim is key piece of information that is of interest to the reader. It is the headline writers job to capture the key information.

'Joe Bloggs murders John Smith' is a less interesting headline than 'Joe Bloggs murders brother in law'. It gets people wondering what the motive was.

The UK public had never heard of Reeva Steenkamp before this case so unfortunately to most she was the GF who the bloke from the Paralympics murdered.

And it is not an inaccurate statement. She is obviously not his GF now, or anyone else's, it can't refer to anything else than at the time of the crime.

'Joe Bloggs is sentence to 10 years for embezzling funds from workplace' does not imply he still works there.

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:38

Reeva was found, if I recall correctly, with her mobile phone with her in the toilet. Who the hell brings their phone to the toilet and locks themselves in at their boyfriend's house? There was other evidence too, such as that she hadn't been sitting on the toilet, but had been standing up at the back wall of the toilet or something (please correct me if I'm wrong), which would suggest to me that she had ran to the toilet with her phone to call for help, locked herself in and then he came and shot her. Just my theory.

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:40

I have a vivid imagination and too much experience of similar however.

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:41

This was 1am local time too. You need to pee? You just go pee. You don't decide to check FB.

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 00:42

Anyway, 13 years (whatever he will serve of it), will teach him a lesson maybe. Some people can't be taught.

NamasteNiki · 25/11/2017 00:47

I think it actually makes it more shocking that they draw attention to the fact that he murdered someone he was in a relationship with and was supposed to love.

Winebottle · 25/11/2017 00:47

CakesRUs That wouldn't be correct. It is for a court of law to decide whether someone is a murder not a news organisation. Until someone has been found guilty of murder, they are not a murderer.

ForgotwhatIcameinherefor · 25/11/2017 00:56

Two things:
1: To Reeva Steenkamp's parents and family It must be sickening to repeatedly see her now reduced to a chattel of "Oscar Pistorius's". I agree with op, it's more than just whether facts and grammar are correct.
And
2: If I was sharing a bed with my partner and woke up to a noise in the bathroom, before processing any further thoughts my first instinct would be to make contact with my partner beside me. Surely that's basically a reflex action? Did I miss something?

sleeponeday · 25/11/2017 01:33

sleep does it actually rule it out? Have you got a link to the info on that? I thought it was just on the basis it couldn't be proven he didn't know it was her. Nobody really believes he didn't know it was her though do they?

It doesn't rule it out, no. I'm personally of the view that he absolutely knew. But it isn't what he was convicted of, so it's not a legal fact.

The thing is, criminal law and civil law are different. Civil law (a financial dispute, or a family court, etc - one where police aren't involved) and the burden of proof is just what is most likely in the circumstances. A criminal court, and you have to be sure beyond all reasonable doubt; any logical, sensible doubt at all that the person didn't do whatever it was, and you have to find them not guilty. That's why it is so unfair when people proclaim that a woman has lied if a man is found not guilty of rape, because the test isn't who is most likely to be telling the truth, but whether there is any reasonable way he could be telling the truth.

In this case, he said he didn't know it was her, just that someone was in the loo. In the first trial, the judge misapplied the law, and decided that if he didn't know it was her, he didn't murder anyone. That's not the law, because he didn't restrict himself to reasonable force, and he wasn't in imminent threat of harm. He thought someone was in that separate loo, and he shot them repeatedly, and to kill, after going into that bathroom. He sought them out and emptied some extremely nasty bullets into them. You don't get to do that within the law unless someone is about to harm you.

I don't see how anyone could think he had no idea. She was standing facing the door with her phone in her hand. She'd locked the door to the loo when he claimed he'd been asleep, so why would she need to? And if he thought there was a home invasion then the last thing he should want to do would be to leave her alone and unarmed behind him, which he claimed he thought he was doing. None of it adds up. But it's reasonable to say that those bits of circumstantial evidence don't prove his intention to harm her beyond doubt, so then you fall back on the second point, which is that he clearly knew that someone was in there, and he deliberately went into that part of the house to kill them. He was reckless as to their life and he intentionally killed them without cause, and not in self defence, which is murder, whoever they were.

TLDR: it doesn't matter if he knew or not. He had no right to kill anyone unless it was self-defence, and the appeal judge held that it wasn't, so their identity was besides the point.

AlongStoryShort · 25/11/2017 03:25

sleeponeday, my conclusions too.

Isthisnamefree · 25/11/2017 04:11

Ok don't shoot me down, Im not up with current (or not so current) events.
I completely agree with the OP.
From the little I have heard it's always been his girlfriend and to be completely honest I wouldn't even know her name until I read it.
It takes away from the poor girls identity.
I'm sure Im not the only one.
If you asked people who Oscar Pictorious is they would say the Olympian guy who murdered his girlfriend, if you then asked for her name I bet not many would know it.
It's wrong... and I'll admit I've only just realised this reading this post.

ferrier · 25/11/2017 06:31

But he was the famous one.
Who can remember the guy who killed John Lennon or the name of the woman who OJ Simpson killed or the man who killed Jill Dando? If I could come up with a famous man who killed a man I would.