To think that work in the UK didn't always used to be like this & wonder why it changed?

[abualb]

(name changed as I've posted on here for a while and i'm pretty sure you could figure out my employer. Cheeky fuckers, send them a cheque, toasters, and all that.)

I'm mid-thirties and started working in a semi-professional role straight from uni. So did DH, who's 5 years older than me (41). no DC yet.

Over the last year i've become really disheartened with my job, and at first i thought it was my employer - i've realise it's not, i've never had what i could call a "good" employer, and nor has DH. and year on year it (working practices) get worse. it just seems to be that the accepted way of working that we've experienced is fairly toxic/on a slipping slope. maybe it's the sectors but i'll give you some examples.

• expectations around 'always on' availability. I've had a work phone since about 5 years ago, and more than ever there seems to be the expectation that you're available outside of normal working hours (emails flying back and forth in the evenings, requests for info before a 8am meeting on monday sent at 7pm on a friday, whatever). text messages, calls once or twice most weekends. neither of us are in critical, non-office hours jobs like hands-on healthcare or shift work or anything - it's normal, non-urgent work part of normal work activity. no such thing as 9-5 any more like in our contracts, it's 8am 'oh so you're coming in late tomorrow' to 5pm 'leaving early today' attitudes.

• expectations around having no personal life. example: i'm never really ill, and the one time i recently tried to get to a GP was in the last appointment they had, at 6.15pm. meaning i had to leave work at 5pm. the pressure i was under because i was not available to be in a meeting was immense. it was just a recurring internal status meeting.

• no one taking actual lunch breaks. we have meetings with people eating sandwichs in them, if they managed to get away to get something to eat at all.

• recurring team meetings starting at 7.15am & 8am each day of the week, not time-urgent critical ones, again, just normal ones, meaning mornings are even more hugely stressful than they need to be. a constant drive to go in earlier to "get ahead"... but that re-sets expectations about when we start, so team meetings move 15 mins earlier.. a horrid cycle!

• massive communications overload. we have people sitting in meetings doing work, half listening, half working, because by the time you get out, you'd arrive back to 40 emails to wade through if you tried to actually switch 'off' for an hour. constant phone calls interrupting people at work.

I'm convinced work didn't used to be like this, and i've seen similar patterns across 3 different employers in the last 8 years. DH is recently experiencing similar, over the last 2 years pressure on him to get more done, work longer hours, has increased unsustainably.

i don't know what to do about it - my colleagues seem to deal with it by doing half-arsed jobs of their work to cope, OR enjoy it (feed on the chaotic buzz), OR collapse and go off sick, OR resign to take up different careers. i don't want to leave but i can't see how i can continue in this working culture as it continues to decline.

AIBU to think this is one of the most damaging outcomes of modern technology, as wonderful as it is? i sometimes feel like throwing my work phone into the sink to get a couple of evenings of peace before it got replaced, but then i'd probably just have to stay at the office late to take conference calls anyway, so not solving the problem.

I have work phone and sometimes work from home on work laptop. Go early for the kids, or me. Sometimes miss meetings.

Tbh, i dont really recognise much of this. Phones go off in meetings. As do laptops, unless using it for presentations. No one answers emails during meetings. No one stresses if your email doesnt get an instant reply.

I am quite senior. We turn our phones off if we dont want to work outside our work hours. Sometimes we do want to. I quite like doing spreadsheets at home when the kids are in bed and no one can disturb my concentration.

I dont feel anywhere near the pressure you seem to be under

I would echo Olicity here. I have worked in a range of industries and am quite senior but I have not experienced the situation that you paint as a norm. Sure at times there are exceptional requirements to be in early or work late, sometimes it is necessary to work over a weekend, but it is not constant. My employer places great importance on work / life balance.

Can you just stop responding to these e-mails and out of hours calls?
Do you think you'd be reprimanded if you switched your phone off ?

I'd be tempted to just turn off and if anyone says anything about it bring it up with HR. Why should you be giving up your free time for work?

If you ever work part time, all ft staff think you are sitting at home waiting to answer their phone calls. It seems to me that for everyone full time there should be a cut off time..no calls or readng emails after between 7.30am and 7.30 pm for example and non at all at weekends. There mbht be some exceptions in certain professions but the uk has not got the work life balance rs ght imo. Any bosses about to comment??

I would be tempted to set an out of office reply every Friday at 5:30pm stating you won't be available until 9:00am Monday.

As for working in the U.K., I only have a singular experience to reference and it was expected I take work home. Whenever I would try to arrange dinners with friends for 6:30pm reservations, some people wouldn't even leave their office until 7:00pm. I found it so rude and I don't bother anymore whenever I'm back in town. I just find it insane that people are working that late all the time.

My current employer is good but I do on average 50-60 hours a week. I have work phone at all times and do emails etc at weekends. I do much shorter hours than my husband and can be less available sometimes. He carries two work phones at all times, including if we are abroad whereas I turn mine off after boarding and leave it off until we land back in UK.

It used to be harder for him. He worked literally every hour of the day and was on call overnight. We don’t resent or regret it. We like our jobs and have done well out of our careers.

I am a boss. if i send an email and its not respondes to until the next, it doesnt even register. I wouldnt dream of beung annoyed. Neither would my own bosses.

If i turn my phone off or dont check my emails on a night, i am fine. No one has ever moaned at me for not being contactable 24/7. My current team all get on very well and we have eachothers personal numbers. In an emergency we could be reached. But that has happened zero times.

I work in the public sector and have to do unpaid overtime in order to keep on top of things (this is strongly discouraged). I guess we can all relate to the "increased workload, higher expectations with fewer people around following redundancies/ early retirements due to budget cuts" scenario.

But things like recurring team meetings at 7:15am should be an exceptional one-off. Reading your post your workplace sounds pretty toxic - poor organisation and bad management. Like you say, the result is that people do a bad job, leave or go off sick. That sort of pressure is not sustainable.

OP your workplace sounds exactly like mine. It’s a nightmare getting people together for meetings because they are already double or triple booked, many people sit all day with headphones on doing one Skype call after another. It didn’t used to be like this but a combination of “challenging” timescales for projects plus people already doing the work of 2 people due to regular rounds of redundancies mean it’s now the norm unfortunately. It’s not that way for every department (eg HR swan in and out when they like) but it’s a normal way of working for those of us in semi operational roles. I am surprised to see so many people on here who don’t work in this way.

I used to work in an office like you describe, OP. A few things struck me:

1. The rise of open-plan offices mean everyone works in a panopticon. I wonder if, psychologically, this drives people to compete with each other. Q.v. traditional 'status symbols' disappearing like having one's own office, assistant etc. 'Working super-hard' is the new status.

1. Since the 2007/2008 crash there's been so much negative narrative about how tight money is and how we've got to tighten our belts etc. Perhaps this leads to staff driving themselves - and each other - harder as people are frightened of being caught up in the next big crash. Companies also feel under pressure to do more with less, so fewer people have more responsibilities, and often more stress.

1. Always-on culture. Laptops and particularly smartphones just make this really, really easy in a way it wasn't before. It's difficult to switch off psychologically if you always think your phone's going to PING and it's Janet saying Roy needs those charts ASAP.

The checking messages in meetings to Keep on top of it sounds very wrong. That's just creating longer than necessary medtings where not enough attention is being given. If that is routine those meetings are unnecessary.
The environment sounds chaotic and toxic. Good time management needs to be modelled. The managers are responsible and need to get some skills.

This isn't a result of technology. It's a result of presenteeism. It's not a 21st century problem. It's a British problem.

This sounds awful. I don't recognise most of this. Although yes to no lunch hours and emails at all hours but no one feels obliged to respond.

Your working environment sounds unhealthy and disrespectful.

I don’t know why pp are saying it’s not a result of technology as some of these things would have been impossible without mobile phones and the internet!

Technology was supposed to free pp but in fact it’s just made pp even more enslaved than they ever were.

I don’t know what industry you’re in OP but I don’t recognise that from any job I’ve done, sounds awful and unsustainable to me!

I do recognise some of this, though not as extreme. I would think constant meetings so early would be a problem for people with children as may not be able to get childcare starting that early - my nursery didn't start till 8. So I would think it's not a workplace that makes an effort to treat staff with caring responsibilities well, and maybe an office that doesn't treat women well.

OP your workplace sounds exactly like mine. It’s a nightmare getting people together for meetings because they are already double or triple booked, many people sit all day with headphones on doing one Skype call after another.

Yes, exactly. Everywhere I've ever worked in the last decade has been like this (I'm in Financial Services). One company I worked for openly told staff they wanted "more for less" and another had the strapline "we never sleep".

OP I can identify with pretty much everything in your opening post. Except at my last job quite often people didn't have time even to get sandwiches to eat in meetings so it was don't eat at all - or an emergency chocolate bar from a vending machine. I used to bring a big bag of apples in every Mon morning and would share them with my team on particularly bad days when we couldn't get away even for a couple of mins. Things got slightly better when we moved desks and were given cordless headsets that had a good enough connection that we could at least get to the water cooler while still being on a conference call. I wish I was joking but this was the sad reality of life for many Financial Services staff I know.

Yes we're both financial services, me banking and DH insurance!
I'm so shocked that so many posters don't recognize it now i feel like exiting is the only option.

Yy to the double, triple meeting bookings, all day back to back calls (whilst doing other work) , iforgot to mention those...

I've worked in a few places, I'm relatively senior currently and this is alien to me. Even in the more stressful places this just wouldn't be acceptable. I work 9.30 to 5.30, can work from home as required if I have childcare needs or something else, can pop out to doctors, am encouraged to take a full lunch and whilst I DO check email out of hours there is no expectation that we do so. Our boss has explicitly said there's no need to reply out of hours and it's not to be encouraged.

I feel really lucky though as I know this is unusual. The flexibility and trust afforded to me is invaluable.

OP - what is it you do? What industry?

Without being crass OP, do you both earn lots? I'd say I'm a mid earner. That level of stress is expect for an £80 plus salary.

Me 52k

DH 43k

For those salaries I'd say way overworked - I'm similar to your DH and my DH to you. Both work standard 8 hour days (of course things like Audit and year end you'd do more). We are not stressed from work on a regular basis and definitely switch off once we're home.

Are your skills transferable? Can you move to a different sector at a similar level?

I recognise some of what you say. The always on part and people expecting out of hours responses in particular. I work in an international field so people are often in different time zones, so that's pretty much par for the course. I don't recognise a lot of the other elements. And I would agree that you both seem underpaid for that level of pressure.

My DH earns more than both of you, and he does not allow work to do this. His work phone is turned off in the evenings and isn't turned on again until he leaves for work in the mornings. And unless he is actively expecting something, he doesn't check work emails at home.

I check my work emails at home quickly, but only because i rarely have time to deal with them at work. (I work in a primary school.)

You need to sound boundaries for yourself. It's the only way to stay sane.

I am older and worked for a number of years in offices pre computers. Yes technology has changed things, even in decent offices. In the past, if you wanted to give someone minutes of a meeting or reports, that meant photocopying each one, and getting it sent or giving it to people. Now people just cc in lots of people, increasing the volume of communications. We also used to phone and meet up more often because there were no emails. Letters typed up in a typewriter took longer to prepare than an email, so they were only sent if necessary. Expected response times were longer as well, unless you really were in an important situation. And often the work you could do at home was limited, so there was less done. Most of all there was way less paperwork.

DP has done same type of job for decades. He brings work home now, despite seeing less clients than he used to he can not do all the work in the given time. The rest of the work is all paperwork, and paperwork that is now accepted as the industry norm. So it is not his employer to blame.