To think that work in the UK didn't always used to be like this & wonder why it changed?

[abualb]

(name changed as I've posted on here for a while and i'm pretty sure you could figure out my employer. Cheeky fuckers, send them a cheque, toasters, and all that.)

I'm mid-thirties and started working in a semi-professional role straight from uni. So did DH, who's 5 years older than me (41). no DC yet.

Over the last year i've become really disheartened with my job, and at first i thought it was my employer - i've realise it's not, i've never had what i could call a "good" employer, and nor has DH. and year on year it (working practices) get worse. it just seems to be that the accepted way of working that we've experienced is fairly toxic/on a slipping slope. maybe it's the sectors but i'll give you some examples.

• expectations around 'always on' availability. I've had a work phone since about 5 years ago, and more than ever there seems to be the expectation that you're available outside of normal working hours (emails flying back and forth in the evenings, requests for info before a 8am meeting on monday sent at 7pm on a friday, whatever). text messages, calls once or twice most weekends. neither of us are in critical, non-office hours jobs like hands-on healthcare or shift work or anything - it's normal, non-urgent work part of normal work activity. no such thing as 9-5 any more like in our contracts, it's 8am 'oh so you're coming in late tomorrow' to 5pm 'leaving early today' attitudes.

• expectations around having no personal life. example: i'm never really ill, and the one time i recently tried to get to a GP was in the last appointment they had, at 6.15pm. meaning i had to leave work at 5pm. the pressure i was under because i was not available to be in a meeting was immense. it was just a recurring internal status meeting.

• no one taking actual lunch breaks. we have meetings with people eating sandwichs in them, if they managed to get away to get something to eat at all.

• recurring team meetings starting at 7.15am & 8am each day of the week, not time-urgent critical ones, again, just normal ones, meaning mornings are even more hugely stressful than they need to be. a constant drive to go in earlier to "get ahead"... but that re-sets expectations about when we start, so team meetings move 15 mins earlier.. a horrid cycle!

• massive communications overload. we have people sitting in meetings doing work, half listening, half working, because by the time you get out, you'd arrive back to 40 emails to wade through if you tried to actually switch 'off' for an hour. constant phone calls interrupting people at work.

I'm convinced work didn't used to be like this, and i've seen similar patterns across 3 different employers in the last 8 years. DH is recently experiencing similar, over the last 2 years pressure on him to get more done, work longer hours, has increased unsustainably.

i don't know what to do about it - my colleagues seem to deal with it by doing half-arsed jobs of their work to cope, OR enjoy it (feed on the chaotic buzz), OR collapse and go off sick, OR resign to take up different careers. i don't want to leave but i can't see how i can continue in this working culture as it continues to decline.

AIBU to think this is one of the most damaging outcomes of modern technology, as wonderful as it is? i sometimes feel like throwing my work phone into the sink to get a couple of evenings of peace before it got replaced, but then i'd probably just have to stay at the office late to take conference calls anyway, so not solving the problem.

Ugh no this is not my experience. Am public sector.

Personally I think it's a sign of a any v54atimr commondls

I totally agree.. The quality of work people actually do is reducing too.

This week I've started a new job and am shadowing the person I'm replacing.

She prints every email off to double check stuff but still ends up doing shit twice anyway.

She Cc'd someone in on an email then sent another email to the guy saying 'I Cc'd you'

Nonsense.

Ragusa You are lucky. I found exactly that expectation in the public sector.

No, it’s awful. People have literally swallowed the lie that they should be grateful to have jobs, that there’s no money hmm, that there’s a dozen people who could take their jobs hmm

Laurie has it.

You need to be grateful, peasant, you really do.

I think you need to put boundaries in place. I used to happily work till all hours and answer emails on hold etc. now I have a baby and nursery limitations mean I can't get in before 8.30 and have to be gone by 5. I can't check emails at home as I've to spend time with her and actually no one has batted an eyelid. Occasionally I've had to excuse myself when a meeting runs over but it's just the way it is. I'm happy to tell people I prioritize my family outside of work hours, you should be too, whether you have kids or not

I can remember a few years ago our regional boss headed up a meeting and said work had changed and people expect you to be on 24/7, how he had taken calls during his Christmas lunch. My view was you sad tosser, I really hope your wife is shaggibg someone who cares about her! He seemed to think that’s how we should all be now. There’s a choice. My work phone is turned off when I leave the office. My computer is occasionally used at home when it suits me. Presenter Ian will not stop u getting the chop but it might cause a divorce and your kids to feel let down.

I agree with you OP I have worked in same department for nearly 10 years and still get drowned upon because I leave the office every day to take my unpaid lunch break . The thing which annoys me is a lot of colleagues say they don’t have time to take lunch but any time you go near their pc they nearly always seem to be online shopping sorting bills out stuff like that which fine but don’t moan you don’t have time for lunch then do that . There also seems to be an expectation when higher paid staff are off sick or on holiday lower paid staff will automatically step in and cover for them and not mind this at all .

I work for a private company on a large government contract. Most of the staff work less than full time hours, although some choose to work more than usual full time hours and get paid for them all.

We have to take at least a 20 min lunch break.

There is never a meeting booked before 9.00am or after 4.00pm.

If I choose to take my laptop home, one of my colleagues will ask me about it and make sure it's because I want to work from home the next day, not because I'm under pressure to finish something in my own time.

The office is relaxed. We keep our own time, although this is backed up by the use of our security passes on all doors.

We are provided with free drinks and snacks, a comfortable break room and free wifi. Occasionally the side will be filled with cake or the freezer with ice-creams for everyone for no good reason.

I get to make decisions based on common sense, ideas for change are positively encouraged and acted upon and the systems are regularly adjusted to make life easier for us and the clients.

Everyone is treated with kindness and respect and it is fully expected that our health and families come first.

As a company we are exceeding expectations and out-performing competitors. I have never worked anywhere with anything approaching a similar work ethic. Everyone, without exception, works hard and consistently to the best of their ability, even though stopping for a chat is never frowned upon.

I can't imagine a better example of why treating staff as well as you possibly can pays off in spades. I would be willing to bet a fair bit of money on the fact that our part time workers achieve more in a six or seven hour day than your full time plus colleagues do in 13 hours, OP.

I assume you are actively seeking alternative employment?

Sounds like you need a union

I am in Financial Services as well, and an educated guess - an American IB firm?

I left Investment banking for these same reasons and more 8 years ago. Hated the politics too. Transferable skills and all that, you can shift your focus and be a rock star in another stream of the industry on 50% of the effort you’re putting in there. I was senior there and am still now.

I think it’s also easy to forget that if you manage people your behaviour sets the tone for them too. I manage a large team and I try to make sure that I take a lunch break and usually arrive and leave at decent times, if I work longer hours I don’t make a big deal out of it to my team because I don’t want them to feel like they have to follow my example. And if I notice my team members staying late or working through lunch I’ll ask them about it or tell them to leave early the next day. But it’s easy I think to put n extra time when you’re busy (especially if the work is interesting g) without thinking about how that can set expectations for/put pressure on people at a lower level.

bloody hell OP you are not being paid near enough to put up with that shit. In your position I would get out - if there is no prospect of the situation improving it is so so difficult to put your foot down and be seen as awkward and uncommitted for refusing out of hours meetings etc, I get it! Get out and start enjoying life and work.

I can remember a few years ago our regional boss headed up a meeting and said work had changed and people expect you to be on 24/7, how he had taken calls during his Christmas lunch. My view was you sad tosser, I really hope your wife is shaggibg someone who cares about her! This made me laugh

Just sounds terrible. The stand up / all hands meetings being held outside of cure hours, is just sloppy. I get that this sometimes has to happen, but as the exception not the norm. But the longer it happens and people accept it as "standard practice" the harder it will be to break the pattern.

I do feel for you OP

I was working in FS and recognise many of the patterns you’re describing, but I was also getting paid more than you and your DH put together to do it.

I’m guessing you’re in an operational / business change type role with internal clients rather than external clients?

I think companies have been rubbing their hands with glee since 2007/8 as they’ve all realised they can pay people less money for more work, whilst reallocating the same amount of work or more (with less support staff) to smaller teams. What happens? It still gets done, to the detriment of physical and mental health of staff, and they can continue posting ever greater profits through lower overheads to pay dividends and please their investors.

At some point, we lost the concept of investing in people. I don’t know when but I do know why... people allowed it to happen and are driven by the hype that not being seen to work as hard as someone else is seen as a personal failing in some way.

I also think there’s been a massive reduction in people skills since technology came along, it has facilitated a rise in narcissism, micro management, ego and aggressively competitive working practises.

If you don’t want to be the one who starts the revolution, you need to either find a role that pays you better for what you do (you need external clients for this), or else transfer to another career. Working like this is not sustainable, good luck.

It seems to be like that in all countries these days, not only the UK, but your list sounds a bit extreme in my ears. I wouldn't want to work under those conditions.

Your list is quite telling: "my colleagues seem to deal with it by doing half-arsed jobs of their work to cope, OR enjoy it (feed on the chaotic buzz), OR collapse and go off sick, OR resign to take up different careers." -- pick one, probably the last one seems to be the most enjoyable.

I've been in insurance but it was a small shop and nothing like your description, and I never once for ten years had to work even a single hour over 40 hours per week. Everybody even gathered once a day to have coffee, for about fifteen minutes, and then we sometimes spoke about how lucky we were not to have to work in some financial firm over in the UK (especially lucky to avoid London-based jobs) and some told they'd in the past opted to turn down offers, which would indeed have paid a lot more more, but would've ruled out the option to have a personal life outside of work. At the previous employer, however, some people came in at 7 a.m. and left at 7 p.m. though, and sure enough 20 percent of the staff had at one point or other been off on sick-leave for burning out, and the company even hired a psychologist to get to grips with the situation... Where I am now people are generally not available off hours, and sometimes they stand up in the middle of a meeting at 3 p.m. in order to go and get their children from school (as per agreement, often they then work part time). Others declare at the opening of a meeting they won't be able to attend for more than half an hour, and then rightly stand up and leave after exactly half an hour (the agenda being shifted so "their" item was brought up within that time).

I think you must take some time off to think about whether you'd be able to stay with that company until you retire, or make plans for how to switch job role or company or both. You might want to read up on what roles are likely to become replaced by algorithms and computers, and if yours is on the list, it's time to make plans now. It really sounds as if your stuck in the "Office Space movie"-company, working on those TPS reports... (film from 1999). If you haven't seen it, see it now. Think about other job roles you might retrain into, job roles that are less "stretched" and less likely to become replaced with AI in the near future (as it sounds to me like your job might). If you're in insurance make sure to put actuary on the list of job roles you consider to retrain into, if you're 35 it's entirely possible since I know people who retrained at an older age than that and it's really sought after and exclusive. Ask more "how" can I do it or "what does it take of me" rather than "I couldn't possibly do it". Everybody I know who is an actuary is very happy with their job, many of them are mums too, so make sure you look into it now when you're already in the sector yourself.

I don't have any qualifications so have always worked in lower wage office jobs. At one point though I was out earning my highly qualified dp who worked in the city.

Because he worked very long hours and was never home and brought work home I got bored in the evenings and weekends and took other jobs.
After he had taken off his train ticket and all the extra expenses he had for his job and put down realistically how many hours he was doing the hourly rate was pathetic. It was less than my hourly rate spread over the jobs I did.

Sometimes you have to have a serious think about what you want out of life.
It could just mean changing jobs. Or looking around at business opportunities.
As someone upthread pointed out, if you had DC you both wouldn't be able to do all this extra stuff .

work to live, not live to work

anyone trying to schedule a 715 meeting with me would be reminded i start work at 9am

occasionally or on special times, i can give more time but anyone who does it every day is a fool

you want to contact me 24 hours a day, then pay me for 24 hours a day

I guessed immediately that you're from FS, OP!

The only time I've experienced people working like this was when I was at a Very Famous Investment Bank - I would quite frequently see graduates dragging themselves in at 6am.

Turn the bloody phone off. I used to turn mine off when I left work (at 8pm)

Gosh it sounds horrific.

Exactly my experience in a multinational that loves to talk about work life balance and mindfulness. Shame the theory never actually materialises outside of the training workshops. They seem to think saying the words make the so. Instead you have your bosses' boss pressuring you to ask you direct reports to work yet another weekend because there is a no miss delivery of fucking fabric softener or some other non essential smelly thing that is more important than seeing yet children grow up. I quit and teach now. Still long hours and half the wage
but at least there is meaning in it all.

I recognise so much of that. In work in FS with internal clients instead of external and am paid less than 35k. I refuse to be always on as I’m not being paid enough for this crap. I take so much crap from senior people paid multiples and multiples of what I do. I didn’t find a solution so I’m leaving, taking a pay cut to change industries but I don’t care, I get to sleep again and get to not have panic attacks on the train in the morning.

I don't know, I think the working classes (which of course is what the majority were until a few generations ago) have always had pretty tough miserable working lives. Dawn to dusk on the land, in factories or in service anyone?

But they didn't go into debt to get a degree to end up working or on call 24 hours per day.

At dusk they were finished

I totally agree OP.

Echos my experience completely. OH and I have had many jobs in the private sector over the years and less than 120% is frowned upon ( and likely to see you overlooked for promotionfirst out the door come redundancy or restructuring.

It's easy to say " just refuse" those late night or early mornings or Saturday emails. But when the company expects it and colleagues are doing the 120% thing then you really are jepordising your own position within the company in terms of security and advancement.

I have worked for companies that take a dim view of anyone taking lunch breaks- instead eat at your desk, I have worked 9-5 where anyone leaving before 7pm is maneuvered to look for work elsewhere.

So hard when you have kids. I gave up work completely when mine were born. OH managed to get 2 days paternity leave. One was the day of the birth. Luckily he had saved his holidays and my births were on tiime.
OH still works in the 120% environment. He should be off today - Saturday, but instead has an unpaid training day.

It's the way it works for many.

I don’t have this at all. It sounds like a cultural thing. We have phones and laptops, but we’re encouraged to not log on at all outside of working hours.