AIBU to think the Finnish school system can't be this good....

[2boyz1girl]

brightside.me/inspiration-family-and-kids/14-reasons-why-youll-want-to-enroll-your-kid-in-a-finnish-school-368710/?utm_source=fb_rc193afb4d368&utm_campaign=13ff3e1dc863&utm_medium=cpm
And it's just the media jumping on the bandwagon.....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32302374

We live in Austria and things are more like the Finnish system here. Kids don't start school until the September after they are 6 and the have the option of a settling in year so my son is nearly 8 and in year 1. School is from 8 to 11:30 and that includes a half hour break time. I think it is brilliant. They don't learn to read until they are 8 or 9.

There is more pressure later on but my experience so far has been with the primary system.

There is after school care offered with qualified teachers in a dedicated building where staff help kids with any homework and they do PE, art projects and free play. This is open until 6pm and during the holidays.

They also provide kindergarten and nursery from aged 1 which follows a development program and enables kids to develop personal skills and they is great support for kids struggling with high German (lots of kids here speak a dialect at home) The maximum you pay is 200 euros per month if you are using the childcare options but it is means tested so many parents pay less. It has been wonderful for our DS in particular who has been a bit slow to settle.

The rub? All these countries pay significantly higher taxes than in the UK. It would require a massive mindset change in the UK to be willing to fund these types of projects and I can't see that happening any time soon .

www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2016/06/why-sweden-s-free-schools-are-failing

I think we should aspire to the best schools for children.

Instead we aspire to some sort of approach taken from the rose tinted view of people who for the most part haven’t had much to do with state schools.

Evidenced based education is too thin on the ground.

I despair.

www.helsinkitimes.fi/lifestyle/13194-northern-overexposure-scandinavia-is-no-utopia.html

Just to add-Finnish may be an easy language, but Polish certainly is not and Polish kids start reading and writing at 7 as well. And it works. The speed at which you pick up things is of an advantage at 7 and the developmental differences are much smaller at this age too. So there is not a situation which you’d often find in UK classrooms where kids who just turned 4 often with less developed fine motor skills are expected to achieve the same as an autumn born 5 year old. Labelling them from an early age, based mostly on which month they were born in is where UK system gets is so wrong.

Peggwyn,

I will say that is only if they take the extra year which my son has done because we only moved here when he was 5 and he didn't speak any German. Most of the kids in his group are August born so they are a bit younger. They also have a lot of focus on learning things like the case system early on which as anyone who has learned German will testify is a total bastard!

He is learning to read English at home and is massively into audiobook which he listens to constantly.

I think what I wanted to highlight is that there seems to be more flexibility here for kids to go at their own pace in the early years.

I certainly think the early years opportunities make a massive difference. Kindergarten is free from aged 3 where we live and our dd has benefited massively from it.

Lots of people here complain about the system though so I am sure it is swings and roundabouts.
One thing I hate about the UK is the politicization of education. That is pretty unique to the UK and US AFAIK where systems can be changed and discarded at the whim is the current government as opposed to based on extensive study and research.

My children are at school in Italy and they don't learn to read until they start school the September they turn 6 either! However, this is a bit misleading because before then every child has the right to a place at "scuola materna" which is free and full time but not obligatory. The teaching here (from 3 - 6) is all play based, so it would not be difficult to introduce something similar in the UK - children would still be going to school, just not learning to read and write.

Actually, my oldest child did learn to read on his own when he was 4 but the youngest two learnt last year when they went into first grade - I would say they have caught up with their British cousins by now.

For me, by far the most useful part of the Finnish system is the way that teachers are respected and trusted. The lack of respect for teachers in the UK (by parents AND the government) is the single most damaging aspect of the education system. By and large, the people going into teaching have a passion and a deep interest in the subject, yet they are not trusted to carry out a good job without micromanaging from above - and the application of rules and targets which have frequently proved to be detrimental to learning. It is a wonder ANYONE is left to put up with it!

My only knowledge of the Finnish education system comes from a swedish friend who lived in england then moved with her kids to a rural part of Finland.

We met up recently and she was trying to relocate back to England as her 12 year old was being horribly bullied. I got the impression that the school werent doing anything to sort it out.
It sounded a very insular , conforming type of community, though that could have been because it was a small island.
I am aware this is only one example but the stories she told about the lack of discipline in the schools and the potential for bullying hasnt made me look favourably on the Finnish system.

have friends from Finland's neighbours Russia & they claim the more disciplined Russian system (& children's attitude towards education is far superior. Who knows!!!

Just an anecdote from me; I don’t work in education. DH’s brother lives in Russia, on the Estonian border. His 10yo son started school at 7, as is standard. The school is oversubscribed to the extent that students are taught in two shifts.

But: education is valued. Teachers are respected. Homework is taken seriously. It is seen as possible for any child from any school in any corner of the country to reach a leading university with enough hard work.

I spoke to my nephew and a friend in English. After two years of English lessons, he can hold a basic conversation, give directions, talk about favourite foods, hobbies etc.

They have far fewer resources than us but my impression was that the value of education makes up for a lot of that.

@whosafraidofabigduckfart

"Education is a collaboration between parents and teachers in Finland too."

Fixed that for you.

If we're working on the basis that the UK's results are bad, Austria's are worse. I'm not sure many people would wan't to pay higher taxes for a system with worse outcomes.

Easton. That is really interesting as I think the behaviour in my children's rural Swedish school is awful. During my son's first week in year 1 he was punched in the stomach by a year 4 boy who said 'You are not cool' when I asked my son's teacher about it, she said 'uh boy's we are planning to talk to him' A week later the same boy slapped his face so hard it left a red mark He said 'Just because you are from London it doesn't make you cool' Again when I questioned the teacher, she said 'its not good, I agree but we haven't had a chance to speak to him yet ' That would not have happened their London school. My SIL (Swedish outside Stockholm) pulled her son from the local as they failed to deal with violent behaviour.

Swearing is a massive problem over here. Primary teachers are regularly sworn at in this school. Children are told to put their index in front of their lips and say peep if a child swears. I was told by a teacher that they think it's really sweet my son is so offended by bad language! I said it is a big deal in the UK and would have resulted in a call to the parents. She seemed surprised. Yes, the school does have its own forest but I would swap it for the concrete playground and trees in tubs for the London school anyday. I feel hugely disappointed by the education system over here.

Admittedly about ten years ago so not sure if so relevant now, but I did a large research study (well more a research of current research!) on the Finnish system and several things cropped up:

1. Finlad has (had) a single tier system; no private schools, independents etc, meaning that everyone was on an equal footing. Only children with severe SEN will be educated in separate schools.

1. A very large % of children are given intervention if they are deemed as behind or in need. I think back then it was up to 40% in the first year and within two years that had drastically fallen. A huge % of the education budget is spent on 1-2-1 help. Newcomer children get extra assistance for language acquisition.

1. Cultural attitudes: It is frowned upon to be a SAHP in Finland. Everyone is supposed to work and pay their way. High quality, high nurturing childcare is heavily subsidized by the government. Ten years ago you could have a baby in a nursery for 12 hours a day for as little as £20.

1. As a result of no 3 there is a culture of high educational aspiration.

1. Although unemployment benefits are more generous than the UK it is something taboo and shameful.

1. Teaching is on par with medicine, very competitive and reserved for the highest achievers. Training is tough and teachers need to have a Masters. As a result they are highly respected.

^As I said this is old research so don't know if it still applies. There was a documentary on a few years back where a year 4 Finnish and British teacher swapped. What stood out was the Finnish teacher was horrified by the lack of respect showed to her, she had to repeat "keep quiet" several times, children answered her back. The British teacher (who was from inner London) felt this was completely normal.

Thanks, londonlookout . That's fascinating.

I have to admit, I'm particularly interested in the 1-2-1 teaching and interventions.

Did you have any figures about class sizes?

thecat as far as I can remember class size was on par with the UK. Possibly bigger at times too.

there is not a situation which you’d often find in UK classrooms where kids who just turned 4 often with less developed fine motor skills are expected to achieve the same as an autumn born 5 year old. Labelling them from an early age, based mostly on which month they were born in is where UK system gets is so wrong.

This with bells on. I think it is tremendously unfair to children who are spring born. Very unfair indeed. But again, that this situation exists, is nothing to do with teachers and everything to do with government dictates.

Which brings me to the point that it is overbearing government interference that is fucking up our schools here. Teachers were respected more when I was younger 35 odd years ago. They were seen as professionals in their own right. The politicalisation of our schooling system by people who have never taught themselves, or completed so much as a child development class, is ruining education. We know a lot more about things like brain plasticity, attention, motivation, etc etc. None of it is ever applied, there is evidence in favour of children being taught formal reading and maths theory later for eg. But this is overlooked in favour of testing and league tables.

Rightly or wrongly the constant 'reforming' of educational practice by politicians gives a public impression that teachers are secondary to a system of education that resides with and is created in government administration. Teachers are thus perceived by some, as mere passive appendages to the system who simply 'carry out' the tasks government say they must. On the whole they are seen as 'teachers' in the barest sense of delivering a prescribed system and less like educators with autonomy.

I reckon the reason that non-indigenous parents and children display greater respect for teachers, is because they dont have such an interferring system in their home country, and so have higher respect for teachers in the countries they come from and transfer that to teachers here.

We ought to let school policy be directed to a greater degree by educational experts not allow it to be politicalised.