AIBU to think the Finnish school system can't be this good....

[2boyz1girl]

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And it's just the media jumping on the bandwagon.....

Boneyback - you can't figure out what you're going to do sitting in a room by yourself in front of your computer (well, you can but not as effectively imo). You figure it out surrounded by the children you need to deliver it to - often literally as you go. Times when I've walked into a classroom wondering what to do that lesson have very often turned out to be the most productive and interesting sessions of the day. I think teaching should be intuitive and adapted to the moment, not scrupulously pre planned.

Don't know whether I should post an answer to your last question, paxillin because I'm not sure you were asking me - and I don't know the answer anyway!

But I didn't want to seem rude ... so I'm just popping back to say I don't know.

I was, thecatfromjapan. It would be at least as important as knowing how they are doing aged 15. Difficult to get a good spread I imagine.

I just wonder what students are like in other countries. The Eal students I teach tend to have a much better work ethic than natives. My Polish student scored 7 and 8 in his English gcses this year. My English students ...not so much:"but he's clever, Miss." Yes, but he's been speaking English for 5 years, rather than 16 and oh look, he actually gives a shit. Oh look, he doesn't see me as an inconvenience or roll his eyes when I explain the success criteria. Oh look, he's doing some work-not talking across me about what fucking Kelly did in Maccie Ds on Saturday night.

We need to change the culture. Teach kids that talking across your teachers, any adults, is fucking rude and that you need to stfu and leRn stuff in school. And that writing a whole paragraph really isn't a big deal when the exam board assume you can do two sides of A4. I feel like a shit actor in a restoration comedy half the time. Thank god kids don't eat fruit.

But the level of subject and pedagogical knowledge you would need to do that would require preparation at some point manic. Although probably less for some subjects than others.

“School” may start at 7 in Sweden but almost universal subsidised nursery starts from much much earlier. 94% of 3-5 year olds are in nursery and hence part of the education system (Educare). They’re not being taught to read, but they are being educated, their parents can work, and the differences between home environments are being levelled out.

Thegiantofillinois : "Thank god kids don't eat fruit."

So, so true.

manicinsomniac

You may wish to fly by the seat of your pants, but others do not wish to.
I am not talking about "scrupulously pre planned" lessons.

I am talking about all of the associated information that goes with it, marking and assessment and TBH honest the "intuitive and adapted to the moment" lessons don't work for every subject.

I agree with the no plan survives first contact ethos, but a lesson needs at very least a basic plan if only to differentiate between low middle and high pupils and any SEND within the room.

Oh yes, of course Rafals - I'm not advocating for never preparing lessons and not having schemes of work! I just think our current UK focus needs a balance shift towards more contact with the children and less concern over planning/prep. Whereas the Finnish system was being praised for having less time with the children than we do in the UK.

But yes, my subjects are Drama, Dance and English with added extracurriculars in Music and Gymnastics. I suppose, if I taught Science or Humanities, my planning would need to be a bit more thorough.

Some here might be interested in the Radio 4 episode of The Educators entitled 'What Finland did Next'. The whole series is well worth following.

Boney - I don't fly by the seat of my pants. My schemes of work are 5 pages long and include all the necessary SEND/Able and Talented info. I just don't see the need for daily plans beyond that. And, for me, differentiation is also more effective when done by observing and adapting than by reading the info on paper.

And if other people don't want to work like that then great, they should go ahead and do what works for them. I was just stating what I thought the negatives in the Finnish system were. To someone else they will be the positives. Horses for courses and all that.

Here's a thought...maybe the average Finnish/Scandinavian kid has a better educated/more 'rounded individual' parent (bigger influence on the whole) than you get in the UK.....

Maybe the wrong sort of planning is part of the issue.

manicinsomniac

there is of course a middle ground between over planning and no planning.

But In my subject I would be unable to change what I do in the lesson as I need the correct equipment to be there (and its not complex resources) and it can't be changed at the drop of a hat.
I can change how I teach something when observing pupils in the classroom.

I think one huge advantage that Finnish , and possibly Swedish schools have is the quality of their pre school education. Pre school is seen as important for learning, not just as child care, with pre school teachers being valued , highly trained , degree and beyond level professionals .Language development is seen as the key, listening and speaking, vocabulary development, story telling, creativity are all seems as vitally important to a child's future development. Children learn to express themselves, learn self esteem, develop positive relationships with peers and adults , undertake activities designed to develop their motor skills, their curiosity and a relationship with their community and the natural world.

When children start more formal education they have a strong basis on which to build, unlike many children in the UK who spend their first few years of their formal education learning what they CANNOT do rather than celebrating what they can do.No wonder so many of our children are anxious, unhappy and fearful of failure.

Before I get flamed I know there is some excellent early years provision, but sadly, a lot of it is not, I have seen dreadful pre schools where the ability of the staff is very low, they simply do not possess the skills to stimulate and develop a child intellectually
, and where the provision is geared towards keeping a child amused and occupied rather than providing an environment that promotes language, enquiry and emotional and intellectual growth.

.

Boney - sure, I get that about equipment etc. I'm not even talking about massive changes most of the time though, I don't think. I don't know, I think I'm just feeling over inspected this week and really noticed how much more stressed, rigid and ineffective I felt when trying to deliver the exact, very definitely overplanned lessons required by the inspectors. Definitely not saying that planning per se is a bad thing.

Out of interest, if you were offered say 10% less time with your classes for 10% more PPA time would you want that or not?

DH is Norwegian and rates the education system where we are (not in the UK, but not in Scandinavia either) as better than the Norwegian system in some aspects, but worse in others. I suspect that's a fair assessment.

No country has a perfect education system. It's fallacious to suggest that any one country has a vastly superior system.

There are so many issues, including the relative readability with the language as well as the way that PISA (the measure of these schools) is administered.

Another key difference is support from parents as opposed to the combative nature of so many in the UK (as evidenced on this thread).

Some media is in love with Scandi education and some relatively uninformed parents are too.

They fail to understand just how prescriptive and narrow education is as they're too busy complaining about any homework or uniforms or someone attempting anything other than 'child-led-learning' before the age of 7.

Strange that there are not more world class engineers, architects, philosophers, scientists, Nobel winners coming out of Finland.

That Finnish school list reads like how my son's preschool (UK) operates. It's an amazing place.
My other son is in high school now and does regular subjects (UK) but I remember his primary school didn't have separate subjects, it was more phenomenon based. (Until year six and the dreaded SATS meant they had formal english, maths and science lessons).

Speaking as a teacher, I think there are so many things wrong with our education system I struggle to know where to start. Top of my wish list would be parental support. I teach in a lovely school. But, the sense of entitlement from parents and pupils has increased to a ridiculous point. I had a complaint last week from a parent who was furious that one of our teachers had put on an after school revision class that clashed with her son's hobby. She was apoplectic that we wouldn't change it. The teacher was staying behind for 4 two hour sessions to revise a unit they'd studied in Yr 10, completely unpaid. She's chosen the day because other teachers had revision classes on different nights which many of the pupils needed to attend in addition to hers. It couldn't be moved. But that wasn't acceptable and the parent was contacting the governors to put in a formal complaint. Another parent complained because we excluded their child for physical aggression towards another pupil. That was 'too harsh' even though the victim was three years younger, completely innocent of any wrong doing and the excluded pupil had just randomly decided to be mean to the first kid he saw My name and the schools was dragged through the mud over Facebook. If I had £1 for every time I am told by a parent that they hold me accountable for their child's GCSE results, I'd be a rich woman. The pupil isn't putting in the work, but that doesn't matter because I am responsible - it is my job to make sure they pass. If a pupil doesn't do their homework, it is because what the teacher has set is too boring. If a child doesn't have any homework, we are failing to support their child and it's our fault if they don't get an 8 at GCSE. Sending home pupil targets of a 7 in every subject (An A in old money) isn't good enough because they know their child and they should get 9s. Why aren't we pushing them? Not every parent is like that, but lots of them are. I spend more time on the phone accounting for why we have done x,y or z than is reasonable. I'm happy with my pay, the holidays are a bonus, but the government's rhetoric and ridiculous drive to 'improve' standards (i.e. make gcses harder and more difficult to pass) fosters a culture and a mindset that teachers are lazy and fuels the sense of entitlement I see on a daily basis. In 11 years of teaching, this is the most stressed I've ever been and, at times, I am scared I will break.