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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be amused at a discussion I can overhear?

427 replies

brasty · 10/11/2017 12:08

At work and currently listening in on a discussion where one woman is trying to explain to a colleague that Jesus was Jewish. Colleague isn't having it Grin

Obviously Jesus was jewish.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
brianna5 · 12/11/2017 09:50

Poorly babe4

Jesus never mentioned another prophet following him. It wasn't written in the bible nor have I ever come across it in the Quran.
The Old Testament in the bible is about Judaism and the New Testament is about Christianity.

Haven't seen similarities of Christianity and Islam differ to Judaism and Islam or Christianity and Judaism

CatkinToadflax · 12/11/2017 10:15

My elderly DF has never made any effort to understand 'The Gay'. He told me recently with some degree of anger and irritation that "of course Paul O'Grady isn't gay, Catkin, he's got GRANDCHILDREN!"

I might film his expression when I drop in that apparently Paul O'Grady was also the founder of Christianity.

ThaliaLuxurySpa · 12/11/2017 10:30

OP,

Proof (honest, Guv) that Joseph (with or without his technicolor dreamcoat) has kebab van interests.

toffeepumpkins, did you start that rumour around Bristol?

Grin
To be amused at a discussion I can overhear?
To be amused at a discussion I can overhear?
CardsforKittens · 12/11/2017 10:36

I have a vague recollection of reading a piece where the evidence for/against the existence of Jesus was compared with the evidence for/against the existence of Socrates. Most Classicists accept the existence of Socrates but ask how much of Plato's thought can be attributed to the historical Socrates (just like New Testament scholars ask how much of the Gospels reflect the historical sayings of Jesus). I don't think it's a question of bias, the difficulty is in deciding how to evaluate ancient texts using today's historical methods.

The people who have read those ancient texts in their original languages have generally concluded that Socrates and Jesus were historical figures, and not just made up by the people who wrote about them, but with some scepticism about how much we can actually know about them as historical figures.

I don't think I'd want to argue against the mainstream academic position without examining the evidence myself, but I don't have time to learn all that Greek.

Leilaniii · 12/11/2017 10:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CardinalSin · 12/11/2017 10:59

Kittens, the difference is that nobody gets killed or has their rights taken away in the name of Socrates...

DorisDangleberry · 12/11/2017 11:06

Leilaniii some more interesting questions:

  • Was Jesus gay? Was he arrested because homophobic Romans didn't like Judas kissing him?
  • Or did he just disappear for 3 days on a tax scam?
  • Why does Paul the apostle hate women so much? Did his girlfriend leave him for someone else when he was younger?
brianna5 · 12/11/2017 11:16

It's just lovely to know people can actually have discussions about religions well a certain type and have a laugh. State their opinion without anyone been offended or going to the extreme.
They are all opinions, beliefs, thoughts, facts for some and so on. The more you discuss the more you learn

SchadenfreudePersonified · 12/11/2017 11:32

she was supposedly marium or maryum or something not mary i am sure i read somewhere.

In the Qu'ran she is Mariam, and I think this is also the Hebrew form of the name (and therefore the "right" one)

SchadenfreudePersonified · 12/11/2017 11:42

brianna - I do so agree that it is lovely to have al ight-hearted religious thread where no-one is vilifying anyone else, and where "disrespectful" comments are taken in the spirit in which they are meant; not as an insult, but as a way of everyone of any faith (or none) to participate and enjoy themselves.

I'm a practising Christian and have a very strong faith - but I firmly believe that a) Jesus' shoulders are broad enough to take any flack, and b) that he would be laughing along with us, because friendly laughter is a unifying emotion which dispels hate and fear.

Smile
CardsforKittens · 12/11/2017 12:15

CardinalSin Indeed. And if I thought that academic arguments against the existence of Jesus could bring an end to the misuse of appeals to invisible authorities as a means of social control, I'd make the effort to learn enough Greek to do it!

CaveMum · 12/11/2017 12:54

@brasty, yes the infamous "Jason Donervan"! An oft frequented mobile establishment for the student community of Bristol Grin

It has its own Facebook page and everything!

www.facebook.com/pages/Jason-Donervan/134754256571854

To be amused at a discussion I can overhear?
Nightshirt · 12/11/2017 13:40

@cardinalsin, @you seem to be missing the point I am discussing, historians of ancient history, atheist an those of faith, agree by a majority the evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus by the standard used to study ancient historical figures is strong. I am not discussing whether he was divine or not, just the evidence for the existence of the historical figure of Jesus. For example, Bart Ehrman, a scholar who is not a Christian and debates Christians, believes Jesus existed, just not the claims about him.

Bart Ehrman on did Jesus exist?

"And so, with Did Jesus Exist?, I do not expect to convince anyone in that boat. What I do hope is to convince genuine seekers who really want to know how we know that Jesus did exist, as virtually every scholar of antiquity, of biblical studies, of classics, and of Christian origins in this country and, in fact, in the Western world agrees. Many of these scholars have no vested interest in the matter. As it turns out, I myself do not either. I am not a Christian, and I have no interest in promoting a Christian cause or a Christian agenda. I am an agnostic with atheist leanings, and my life and views of the world would be approximately the same whether or not Jesus existed. My beliefs would vary little. The answer to the question of Jesus’s historical existence will not make me more or less happy, content, hopeful, likable, rich, famous, or immortal.

But as a historian I think evidence matters. And the past matters. And for anyone to whom both evidence and the past matter, a dispassionate consideration of the case makes it quite plain: Jesus did exist. He may not have been the Jesus that your mother believes in or the Jesus of the stained-glass window or the Jesus of your least favorite televangelist or the Jesus proclaimed by the Vatican, the Southern Baptist Convention, the local megachurch, or the California Gnostic. But he did exist, and we can say a few things, with relative certainty, about him."

CardinalSin · 12/11/2017 13:49

Bart Ehrman is weird. He writes a whole book showing that there is literally no evidence for a historical Jesus, and the decides that he thinks there was one. It's really quite bizarre...

CardinalSin · 12/11/2017 13:50

Nightshirt, please, show me your evidence!

KickAssAngel · 12/11/2017 14:31

OMG - Jason Donavan is something else I'd forgotten about! Brings tears to my eyes, that does. Love it.

VoluptuaSneezelips · 12/11/2017 15:27

Only thing I have to add to the discussion is this Enjoy!

SchadenfreudePersonified · 12/11/2017 15:58

I'd make the effort to learn enough Greek to do it!

Don't!

Trust me - it's a bugger!

(Mind, Im not very bright . . . Confused )

fartyghost · 12/11/2017 16:04

toffeepumpkins, did you start that rumour around Bristol?

Possibly Blush

Nightshirt · 12/11/2017 16:58

@Cardinalsin, I haven't been a scholar of ancient history for 30 odd years, so I will defer to the experts who are and who are mostly in agreement that the historical Jesus existed.

newtlover · 12/11/2017 17:21

thanks for the link, @Cardinalsin

CardinalSin · 12/11/2017 17:50

That's fine Nightshirt, you believe what you want. But it is being questioned more and more, despite the church trying to shout down any questioning as they have been able to successfully for centuries.

The fact is that there is literally no contemporary evidence that he existed. That doesn't mean that he didn't, but personally I find that quite telling.

CardsforKittens · 12/11/2017 18:30

CardinalSin Historians and biblical scholars aren't agents of the church(es), shouting down any ideas they don't like in order to toe some party line. Questions about the historicity of the gospel accounts have been discussed by scholars for over 100 years. Having critically examined the available evidence, the vast majority of scholars conclude that Jesus was a historical figure. To make a serious argument against this consensus requires considerably more than a 'you believe what you want' approach. It requires, at the very least, a substantial academic background in ancient textual criticism and historiography.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 12/11/2017 18:49

Now children - we've all been playing nicely. Please don't spoil it. Grin

Jux · 12/11/2017 20:36

I always thought it was basically impossible for people to be unbiased.