WIBU to keep removing privileges from DS?

[LookAtMyRingsMyRingsMyRings]

DS1 is 8 and over the last year we have seen a big increase in him struggling with frustration/anger at home. He seems to overreact to so many small things and it's getting out of hand. we have 3 other DC aged 5, 5 and 2.

The bulk of the issues are between DS1 and DD1, constant niggling and winding each other up which has now progressed to him reacting to everything she does as if she's deliberately trying to wind him (maybe she is, its hard to tell). He growls/screams at her and can get violent (low level, kicking/hitting out once rather than full on beating up).

He really struggles with doing as he's asked first time and then he growls/screams/stamps his feet at me when i take away privileges when he hasn't done as he's been asked.

Example: Yesterday at 4.30pm i asked all DC to tidy their playroom. Spilt the room into thirds so they all had their own bit to sort (to save arguing). Half an hour later DS2 had finished but DS1 and DD1 were mucking about. So i told them both they had lost their 'daily challenge' (for good behaviour, reward chart thing). DS1 growls, stamps and shouts 'it's not fair'. i calmly reiterate he needs to tidy up and if it is not done in the next half an hour he will lose his game time before bed. it isnt done, so i tell him he's lost the game time. more growling and screaming at my face. I naughty step him for screaming at me and then send him back to tidy, warning him that he will also lose his reading time for any more bad behaviour. i go back in, room still not tidy so i tell him he;s lost his reading time and he loses it in epic style.

Once he had calmed down and the others were in bed i had a long chat with him (again) explaining that he couldnt behave this way and that my job was to teach him how to behave properly and as he didnt do as i asked, i had to take away something he enjoyed. Tried explain that the reason he lost his game time and reading was because of his behaviour but he wouldnt accept it, just kept telling me it was 'not fair'. I gave up, put him to bed and told him i loved him.

So what am i doing wrong? how else do i get him to understand that he has to do the jobs i ask him to do and that shouting/screaming at me is not acceptable behaviour?

the rest of the time he is wonderful, very clever (genuinely) and good fun. he gets one on one time with me and DH every night when the younger ones are in bed, he is excelling at school and they have no issues.

i'm at a loss of how else to handle this.

So WIBU to keep removing more privileges? What should I do instead?

I used to remove treats as a punishment too, until someone pointed out that eventually my son had nothing left to lose so why do what I wanted.
I'll use your examples, I told him to do something, he didn't do it, I removed challenge time, still didn't do it, I removed game time, still didn't do it, I removed reading time. Now it's still not done, he has no treats left and I have nothing to threaten to take away...now what?
The advice was to praise more for good behaviour and punish less for bad.

I said upthread I don’t use the step. Dd hates it. In hindsight I think it was scary and upsetting for her. And not very effective. It just got her to “do as she was told” without regard for her autonomy and built resentment.

I have used “time in” and agree it is far more effective than time out. It’s also fine if your ds wants to be by himself and go to his room and calm down. But this shouldn’t be used as a punishment and would be a chosen time out. My friend’s ds does this.

Different children react to different approaches.

"Do this thing you don't want to do or I'll do something mean to you," is often how these interactions sound to children. It feels like bullying. You have to do everything you're told straight away or you get things taken from you. It fosters a real sense of no control.

People say phrase it as a choice but honestly "do this thing you don't want to do or I will do something mean: your choice!" doesn't sound much better. I remember bullies pulling that tactic (give me your lunch money or I'll hit you - your choice if you want a slap!")

Obviously that's not what OP is trying to do or communicate! But it may well be how he feels and why his defiance is escalating.

There are some good suggestions here OP and I'm glad you now feel you have a plan. I also agree that giving him choices generally will probably help.

But I would worry that framing chore-or-punishment specifically as a choice will just backfire.

I think that there is a chance that you maybe starting to scapegoat your DS.

You have said that you tell DS off but what do you do to DD?

It is entirely possible that whilst you are telling off DS your DD is smirking behind your back or she is winding him up.

I know that posters will say that he is responsible for his actions but you may well be allowing your DD to get away with hers.

And TBF if he is the only one getting told off then he is seeing your DD getting away with things, it won't help with your (or your DD's) relationship with him.

tidy up may be too abstract a concept fro him. you need to tell him his job is to put all the cars in the blue box, dd puts crayons in the red box, littlies put books on the shelf, then assign another task... eg putting the Lego in box etc.

praise for doing it well.

tell him he is really good at tidying. (ds is really good at saying thank you, even when he is at the point of autistic meltdown because I keep telling him he is really good at saying thank you)

Mine can bicker like crazy, so I try and get them to work together to earn a treat. Each gets to rate the other out of 10 on how well they did the appointed task (clearing up the kitchen, tidying the playroom). If both of them achieve more than 9 out of 10, then they earn the treat. Otherwise they have to sit down and talk about what happened so they scored their sibling lower. That immediate feedback sometimes causes more arguments, but it has been interesting seeing how it is changing their behaviour towards each other. The joint treat also gets them to look at themselves as a team and not 2 individuals.

I was also wondering about the tidying the playroom issue. Could he be getting overwhelmed by the lack of precision in the request to ‘tidy the playroom’. Maybe a list of what a tidy playroom means would help him break the job done and help him get started. He might be struggling with executive functioning a little and breaking the big jobs down into bite sized chunks would reduce his stress level.

He isnt overreacting, he cant cope. I can empathise with him because this sounds like my childhood.
You aren't being fair on him. You know she is goading him, deal with her and stop telling him to manage it. Just because he is 2 years older doesn't mean he can cope with her goading him. Its a form of bullying and his frustration is showing.

My 9 year old is exactly the same. I thought it was his adhd but perhaps is an age thing after all.

I tend to make ds earn things rather than removing. So he loves ipad time which he has to earn each day by doing set tasks - dishwasher empty, homework without too much of a drama etc. Each task is worth 10mins.

I have traffic light system so being rude etc gets him moved to green, another incident yellow then red which is a time out. Hitting is automatic red. I use it with all my kids.

I also find its easier to blame.the eldest which is unfair and a trap I fall into. If kids are fighting they both get stuck on time put for 5 mins to cool down.

Any my dc never tidy together. I send one in at a time to tidy heir bit and set 10mins timer to do beat the clock

It was nspcc course that made me realise I had to separate put treat and punishment. He knows he will be punished for bad behaviour with time out but he won't loose his fun things. Unless it's really grim like bullying, extreme lying etc then ipad would disappear for a wk and no afterschool clubs

DD does get time outs and she also has a 'daily challenge' which for her focuses on not being rude. so no, she doesnt get away with it, its just so hard to know when she is actually winding him up and when DS1 has decided she is winding him up when she is just singing to herself (for example).

we've been out all evening and now just settling down for board game time with DS1, will be starting afresh tomorrow by reiterating the house rules and how consequences will work and go from there.

thank you everyone for being so constructive and helping me make a plan!