WIBU to keep removing privileges from DS?

[LookAtMyRingsMyRingsMyRings]

DS1 is 8 and over the last year we have seen a big increase in him struggling with frustration/anger at home. He seems to overreact to so many small things and it's getting out of hand. we have 3 other DC aged 5, 5 and 2.

The bulk of the issues are between DS1 and DD1, constant niggling and winding each other up which has now progressed to him reacting to everything she does as if she's deliberately trying to wind him (maybe she is, its hard to tell). He growls/screams at her and can get violent (low level, kicking/hitting out once rather than full on beating up).

He really struggles with doing as he's asked first time and then he growls/screams/stamps his feet at me when i take away privileges when he hasn't done as he's been asked.

Example: Yesterday at 4.30pm i asked all DC to tidy their playroom. Spilt the room into thirds so they all had their own bit to sort (to save arguing). Half an hour later DS2 had finished but DS1 and DD1 were mucking about. So i told them both they had lost their 'daily challenge' (for good behaviour, reward chart thing). DS1 growls, stamps and shouts 'it's not fair'. i calmly reiterate he needs to tidy up and if it is not done in the next half an hour he will lose his game time before bed. it isnt done, so i tell him he's lost the game time. more growling and screaming at my face. I naughty step him for screaming at me and then send him back to tidy, warning him that he will also lose his reading time for any more bad behaviour. i go back in, room still not tidy so i tell him he;s lost his reading time and he loses it in epic style.

Once he had calmed down and the others were in bed i had a long chat with him (again) explaining that he couldnt behave this way and that my job was to teach him how to behave properly and as he didnt do as i asked, i had to take away something he enjoyed. Tried explain that the reason he lost his game time and reading was because of his behaviour but he wouldnt accept it, just kept telling me it was 'not fair'. I gave up, put him to bed and told him i loved him.

So what am i doing wrong? how else do i get him to understand that he has to do the jobs i ask him to do and that shouting/screaming at me is not acceptable behaviour?

the rest of the time he is wonderful, very clever (genuinely) and good fun. he gets one on one time with me and DH every night when the younger ones are in bed, he is excelling at school and they have no issues.

i'm at a loss of how else to handle this.

So WIBU to keep removing more privileges? What should I do instead?

Maybe a slight reframing of wording.

You need to tidy your room. When it is done you can play on your game until 5.30. The sooner it is done (properly done) the longer you can play on your game

Okay, so one alternative way of handling this would be at the end of the first half an hour, you give an immediate punishment - naughty step, or time out, or whatever. Then, you do something nice - a snack, or playtime or something, but also for a limited time. At the end of that, you point out that his section of the play room still needs to be tidied. You offer to help him do it and give him an incentive for when it's done - screen time, maybe. That way he doesn't incur more and more punishments if he won't do it, he just doesn't get the reward. Also, when he's doing his tidying, make sure the other kids are elsewhere, so that he's not getting distracted by them.

I started a thread about how we don’t use punishments in our house the other day because they don’t work!
It’s not fair that you punished him, it’s not a natural consequence for not tidying in X of time you are punishing him just because you can it’s not achieving anything the room is not getting any tidier. I truly believe punishments make children misbehave because to them it’s not fair they get more upset and more angry and it also builds up disrespect and distrust between your relationship. It may not work for you but please at least try the no punishment approach, show your son the trust and respect you expect him to show you and see how he responds.

Tidying up never gets done in my house, so I schedule it before lunch or tea, usually putting a nice pudding on.
I come in to 'check' how they are getting on, and mostly it is more about giving them a hand.
Straight after tea never works.

Children don't need punishments but they need boundaries.

mummy - he is a child, i am his parent - of course he needs to do as he's told. that being said i appreciate i'm clearly not quite going about this the right way.

This has been building with him for a while so i guess i hadnt realised how much both DS1 and myself are now escalating the problems (not hard to see why DS1 and DD1 rub each other up the wrong way...apples, trees etc!)

He doesnt rebel against the naughty step and it is useful for defusing the situations between him and DD1.

i will focus on trying to change the way i ask and try not to put time limits if i dont really need them. (dont get me started on the battle to get his bloody shoes on to go to school in the morning!!)

I need the behaviour nipped in the bud as the younger ones are starting to copy it.

He is such a great boy as long as he's not being asked to do something he doesnt want to do!

any techniques i can teach him to help him manage his frustration when his siblings are winding him up? he just explodes at them at the moment. He is so sure DD1 is trying to wind him up on purpose we get 'DD1 stop smiling!' 'DD1 stop humming' - its really hard to police if she is genuinely trying to annoy him or he's looking for an argument with her out of habit (probably 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other)

Copied from a Gentle Parenting Facebook page:

She asked, "Mom what made you decide not to punish us?"

I replied, "Because I believe in you. And I want you to believe in yourself too. You are capable of choosing right because it feels right, even when no-one is looking. Punishment & rewards don't teach that."

She replied, "I see it's hard work but I want to raise my children this way too. It feels good Mama, to be trusted. Thank You."

I explained the effects of punishment and shame so she could understand it better.
She mentioned other people in her life who believe that children need punishment to learn that there are consequence to actions.

We agreed that there are always consequences.

I asked her how she felt after making a mistake or doing wrong.

She said, "I feel awful inside. Especially if I've been grumpy with someone or forgotten to do something important. It makes me feel sick sometimes. Like I wish I could go back in time and do it better. It makes me want to do better next time."

We agreed that remorse or a breach of trust is punishment enough and that wanting to do better is an excellent lesson learnt.

Children teach us so much!
If we trust them.

I made so many mistakes in my early years as a parent. I still make mistakes. Punishment wouldn't help me grow or do better. I WANT to do better. It's relationship, grace and empathy that teach me.

We all try daily to do better. I know older children respect that. Children are so gracious. I want to be a gracious parent.

Let's trust the process.
Nurture + Nature = Maturity.
Nurture (loving guidance) and nature (time and essence) are enough.

Above all, a healthy relationship is the greatest motivator and influence in a child's life.

~Lelia.

(A tribute to my daughter on her 12th birthday...thank you for your loving friendship and for inspiring me.)

Thanks for the advice. I must start another sticker chart we had one once but my daughter just didn't get her stickers as much as her brother and so he got the reward at the end of the week and she didnt! Perhaps if rather than having particular targets we just 'catch her being good' it might be more effective.

Does what you are asking him to do make sense?
I understand you want the playroom to be tidy, but does it have to be in the next half hour? I always find that DC respond more to being asked to do things when they have some control over them.

So you could say, for example, that the playroom has to be tidy by tea time and if it is then they can have half an hour of gaming after tea, otherwise they will have to spend that half hour tidying up. Up to then to pick when they want to tidy it, and clear consequences.

He sounds quite similar to my eldest. He is also bright and cares passionately about fairness. He doesn't like being controlled and tends to refuse on principle to do something if he feels coerced into doing it by the removal of privileges. He also cottons on quickly if I am ramping up punishment because he is pissing me off, and digs his heels in more.

He is a mini-me, so we tend to wind each other up, and I certainly haven't cracked the problem. But I do try to give him more control over when he does stuff, and how he does it.

Do you know what he thought wasn't fair? I do find that once DS has got into his head that something isn't fair, we need to address that to make progress.

What I’m saying is it’s much better to have family rules. And expectations. As in “we act like this in our family”, “we do this”. So that he feels like part of the herd and he has an inclusive identity. This way he doesn’t feel singled out. But working as part of a team. And hey, what better place to be than the fab big bro?

Telling him to do as he’s told pitches you against him. It gives him no choices, autonomy or personal identity. He’s acting up and hitting out against your parenting. He’s trying to teach you he’s not happy with the situation. It’s for you to listen.

i will look at finding some more 'natural' consequences for not doing as he's told. I do usually get results by herding everyone else to the car and telling him he will have to go without shoes and his lunch if he's not in the car when the others are strapped in.

i'm afraid the 'no punishment' style of parenting will never work for me. it is not my parenting style in any way and i dont believe in the 'treating children like equals' in that way. the examples i've seen of it anecdotally have led to very entitled teens/young adults. each to their own but not for me.

i am going to focus much more on natural consequences rather than contrived punishments. 'this has to be done by X time. if you do it now you can do Y thing, if you dont get X done you cant do Y thing' and see how he responds to that. as redsky has suggested.

mummy we have a list of 'family rules' up. but i do appreciate your point about pitching myself against him and pushing him to rebel further. I will have another talk about the 'family team' responsibilities and expectations. unfortuantely for him, sometimes there is no choice, sometimes he really does have to accept my word on things as i am his parent.

cornflake that sounds just the same. his main complaint is that he cant do what he was asked because DD1 was annoying him....

OP, your escalating scale of discipline and punishment doesn’t work.

He needs your time and understanding, not threats. Your negative behaviour breeds his negative behaviour.

Like how criminals get sent to jail if they commit a crime but it's their choice whether they commit the crime or not so it's not unfair to send them for jail when they did sonething that they knew would result them going to jail?

Not a great example. The vast majority of offenders go on to reoffend. The prison approach doesn’t rehabilitate at all.

Fruit
Ah bless, I think just because stickers are good as well. Have some really easy wins on the chart and one or two harder things. We had little things for dd like putting her coat and shoes away when she came home. Then a big one, where she had changes to make like being kind to the dog. (She’d wind him up or sometimes hit him, poor old boy, now on the rainbow bridge). Maybe have a points system so she is guaranteed to get something. Or accrue points - that may be a bit tricky at her age though.

Ofcourse he has to accept certain things. He’s a kid. Glad you’ve taken on board things being said. I hope by making things more positive, he’ll have more fun and spend less time pushing against you .

Try positive rewards rather than negative punishments. It’s what I do with my asd sons.

I read a book that pointed out that the effect on “reward centres” in the brain of reward charts for children, are the same as those experiences by heroin addicts when they have a hit.

Worth considering. (And reading up on internal v external motivation.)

I don't think I am quite in the "don't punish" camp either, though I think generally that punishments should be proportionate and be a consequence. For example, if ds gets a detention for not doing homework because he spends too much time on xbox, it would seem reasonable to remove access to xbox unless and until he does homework. But I'm less keen on removing access to xbox just because. I am totally with those people who say go for natural punishments rather than contrived ones and I see you have said you will try that in future.

But in your case, I wonder if you're making him do things because you have 3 other kids? Do you expect him to do more because he's the oldest? I know people say kids have to "make a contribution" to the family, but I do think it's unfair when people expect older siblings to help care for the younger ones, or do more chores because they have to deal with the younger ones. I'd think about what you think is really necessary for ds to do as a normal 8 year old and think honestly if you'd ask him to do those things if he were an only child.

Have a look at these and see if the strategies will work for you and your son. I'm not suggesting he has this, but sometimes strategies for a particular condition work for other kids too.

Instead of giving him a demand, phrase it differently and see how he responds.

www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-PDA/about-pda
www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspx

I think generally that punishments should be proportionate and be a consequence. For example, if ds gets a detention for not doing homework because he spends too much time on xbox, it would seem reasonable to remove access to xbox unless and until he does homework

Surely the detention is the punishment there? Is there need for more?

disahster the older 3 DC have an equal chore load - set the table for dinner, tidy the playroom, make their beds, put dirty clothes in the laundry, put shoes/bags/coats away after school. DC4 is only 2 so obviously doesnt do chores yet (although will put her shoes away!) I expect him to set a good example because he's the oldest, thats about the only thing i say to him relating to being the oldest (i'm the oldest too so appreciate the annoyance of it sometimes!)

his main complaint is that he cant do what he was asked because DD1 was annoying him....

Yeah, we get that a lot!

With DS2, in the similar situation, he gets that he's overstepped the mark, and generally quickly does the thing that he's been asked to do and basically sucks up to me. The boy will go far...

But DS1 doesn't work like that. I find it really frustrating to have to stop and deal with the unfairness - but if I don't, the thing just doesn't get done. He will deliberately waste whole days just to defy me. It really is very surprising that he is still alive! But he is getting better as he gets older (and so naturally gets more freedom) and as we both recognise the flash points.

Ridiculously overkill. Why must everything have to attract a punishment? Just tell him off.

I have a 10 year old boy myself who has had his moments. It exhausts me just thinking about some huge long list of privileges that I’ll withdraw for him not doing something. I prefer positive reinforcement .. so ‘ let’s crack on with tidying these toys and then we can go downstairs for a biscuit/ breakfast/a drink/ to watch that tv programme. Whatever. It works.