WIBU to keep removing privileges from DS?

[LookAtMyRingsMyRingsMyRings]

DS1 is 8 and over the last year we have seen a big increase in him struggling with frustration/anger at home. He seems to overreact to so many small things and it's getting out of hand. we have 3 other DC aged 5, 5 and 2.

The bulk of the issues are between DS1 and DD1, constant niggling and winding each other up which has now progressed to him reacting to everything she does as if she's deliberately trying to wind him (maybe she is, its hard to tell). He growls/screams at her and can get violent (low level, kicking/hitting out once rather than full on beating up).

He really struggles with doing as he's asked first time and then he growls/screams/stamps his feet at me when i take away privileges when he hasn't done as he's been asked.

Example: Yesterday at 4.30pm i asked all DC to tidy their playroom. Spilt the room into thirds so they all had their own bit to sort (to save arguing). Half an hour later DS2 had finished but DS1 and DD1 were mucking about. So i told them both they had lost their 'daily challenge' (for good behaviour, reward chart thing). DS1 growls, stamps and shouts 'it's not fair'. i calmly reiterate he needs to tidy up and if it is not done in the next half an hour he will lose his game time before bed. it isnt done, so i tell him he's lost the game time. more growling and screaming at my face. I naughty step him for screaming at me and then send him back to tidy, warning him that he will also lose his reading time for any more bad behaviour. i go back in, room still not tidy so i tell him he;s lost his reading time and he loses it in epic style.

Once he had calmed down and the others were in bed i had a long chat with him (again) explaining that he couldnt behave this way and that my job was to teach him how to behave properly and as he didnt do as i asked, i had to take away something he enjoyed. Tried explain that the reason he lost his game time and reading was because of his behaviour but he wouldnt accept it, just kept telling me it was 'not fair'. I gave up, put him to bed and told him i loved him.

So what am i doing wrong? how else do i get him to understand that he has to do the jobs i ask him to do and that shouting/screaming at me is not acceptable behaviour?

the rest of the time he is wonderful, very clever (genuinely) and good fun. he gets one on one time with me and DH every night when the younger ones are in bed, he is excelling at school and they have no issues.

i'm at a loss of how else to handle this.

So WIBU to keep removing more privileges? What should I do instead?

I expect him to set a good example because he's the oldest
Stop expecting that. He isnt mature enough to deal with any of this, and it gives his sister the perfect chance to goad him and get him into trouble.
What do you do about her behaviour? You say you cant see her goading him but you can see his reaction. but I think you need to set limits and separate them for a while. How would he act if she wasnt around?

And don’t send to a naughty step. What even is that? Speak to him in a low voice so that eventually he has to lower his to hear you. You seem to escalate everything and you’ll make it worse

cornflake nice to know i'm not alone! problem is i just dont know if she is dilberately annoying him or not! i cant exactly tell her she has to stop singing in case a) her brother overreacts or b) she is only doing it to annoy him! likewise with 'smiling' or 'looking at him'!!! i dont doubt that sometimes she is trying to wind him up, but surely not every time and there is no way to tell as i may not be in the room at the time it happens!

Because he doesn’t think it’s fair, could you rephrase things so he can recognise that losing privileges is a consequence, not a punishment that you chose?
Eg. ‘It’s your choice, you can tidy up, or you can miss your challenge.’
I know it’s only a small thing, but I find this really helps me, as later when children complain it’s not fair, I can say that they made their choice. I teach reception age children and they normally catch on to this after a week or so

Try time 'in' rather than time out. You have 3 other children so it will be harder for you, but sitting down with him until he calms down, and then speaking to him about why his behaviour isn't acceptable might make a lot of difference.
'You're an awesome, clever, helpful little boy but your behaviour is not acceptable. I have asked you to tidy the playroom, your siblings are doing it so work as a team and it will be done quickly and we can all move on'. No punishments needed, but a highlighting of exactly what has gone wrong.
And have him physically close to you as you're doing it. It sounds as though he has problems regulating his emotions; in which case it's your job to become his regulator. And if he can feel your calm breathing/talking etc then it will calm him down quicker.
In our house, time in is recognised as punishment enough because it's still being singled out from the others, when in reality it's nothing more than a cuddle and a chat!

If he was an only one I'd think fair enough,BUT he isn't .

Don't you think that some of this might have something to do with 3 younger siblings including one,who you volunteered probably knows which buttons to push?

Maybe you need to have a gentle talk with him about how he feels about them and how he sees his place in the wider family. They're not going away so it's worth exploring.

All the punishments/sticker charts in the world aren't going to help if really this behaviour is that he's trying to tell you something.

toocool i dont believe for a minute you dont know what a naughty step/time out spot is. it is very useful for my DC when they need time apart to cool off.

baggy i get very stuck on that as a lot of the time i cant tell if DS1 is overreacting or if DD1 is actually deliberately annoying him. then they both lie to blame the other one. so it leaves me a bit stuck with them both crying they are being hard done by! Example: 'DD1 stop making faces at your brother' 'I was just playing' 'DS1 stop reacting to her and just ignore her' 'she's doing it on purpose' and round in circles we go!

A reasoned approach seems to work best for us - I think it makes them realise that their actions also have consequences and effects on others.

Still works now - DD16 always wants an extra half hour before pickup/getting home - so now we approach it as - "it's a school/work day for all of us so we'll pick you up at x.xx".

The tidy up thing would have been approached as "We are all tired - time for a chill out and tea after we all get this room done... I'll cook, you get on, come on... chop chop."

(yes - I really do talk like a 50's governess!)

I think you need to reframe how you expect him to behave, and, as he is older than the other 2, start giving him choices about when and how he carries out his set of tasks.

This will help him feel more mature than his siblings, and reduce the friction between him and the 'deliberately annoying' younger sister.
Reading through your posts, although each child has their individual time with you, it sounds like they do not have much space to work out their own ways of doing things. As he is 3 years older he sounds like he needs much more personal autonomy.

triple i think that is an interesting point about being his 'regulator'. its hard for me as i also get wound up easily and my DB and i fought like DS1 and DD1 do and clearly that has not helped me prepare for how to help them handle it differently!! I will see if me going to him to help him calm dfown when she winds him up will help.

bubbly i will make sure to include the 'his choice' part when giving instructions, thank you.

silver but i cant magic up more time in the day to get stuff done - the table needs to be set, the room needs to be tidied and i need to make dinner. to an extent i can give a bit more freedom but sometimes things need to be done on time! they have to tidy up before dinner each day, its not like it should be a suprise to them.

beyond i like the idea of expanding the knock on effects to include all the rest of us, i will try that too.

Ooh we've got one of those.. defiant only response to removal of privileges is to be crosser! He's 7. His older DD is also pretty defiant but much more amenable to gentle parenting methods like talking it through, establishing expectations, ceding some control. Him not so much he doesn't want to engage.

He would probably do better with more rigid routine, consistency, clear expectations but rest of family more flexible and spontaneous - so we struggle.

I am trying to find ways not to make him the bad guy so he doesn't immediately feel the need to oppose but it can be hard.

Really im nust sympathising.

screaming yes that sounds right, everything i tried just made him madder and more stubborn!

Try phrasing things as a choice.

If you tidy your room before x time you will get a sticker or you can leave it until later and not get a sticker.

Think of this as an adult, if you were at work and made a cock up, you may be disciplined, you may have to have a chat with a manager, you wouldn't lose pay (OK you might if it was a bonus).

Never ever compare him to a sibling (not sure if you ever have).

Give some privileges for being older, "can you help mummy do this?"

disclaimer - teacher not a parent but the choice thing works with some kids.

My two wind ea h other up just by breathing the same air sometimes and I know how hard it is to know if DD is singing to annoy my DS or just singing etc. I tend to leave them to get on with it most of the time. If there are tears on either part they both get some time out to calm down and think. Not time out as a punishment but clearly phrased as "you both need some space", I'll sit them apart from each other in the same room (usually the dining room while I potter about in the kitchen) and after a couple of minutes will ask them each what happened and how they could have dealt with it before one or other or both ended up in tears.

By that point they can usually talk a bit about why X was annoyed by Y and we think of different ways to cope, e.g. Leaving the room, giving the other person the toy, coming to sit with mummy. It's slow hard work but my DD will now actively try to manage her anger rather than hitting her brother which is a major step forward.

jelly that is exactly what we have here. and i also end up often just sticking both in time out as i have no idea who was really at fault. I will add in your idea of then talking through in a rational manner how they could have managed the situation better. i will phrase it more as a 'time out from each other' rather than 'naughty step'

Re the tidying up, we reduced the stress levels in our house by having a list of things to do each day. For me it was just before bed and early mornings that were hard. However, it might work for you if you have the same tasks each day. So you might have a tidy up picture, a set the table picture and a glass of water picture all to do before te. Seeing what needs to be done may really help your DS.

My DD2 is really doing well at starting to manage her temper. She'll now verbalise "I'm so cross about X" or my favourite which was "I'm really sorry for shouting at you mummy, but I am still really very very cross with you about Y". She got a well done for managing her feelings so well and a discussion about I was sorry my actions had made her cross but this is why I had done them... .

It took a long time of talking in quiet voices with her about why she was cross, ask her to speak calmly and clearly about it too (and sometimes asking her to calmly to remove herself from the area for a minute to help her calm down). Such a lot of calming

There are consequences/punishments for bad behaviour in our place too. Sounds like you just need a tiny tweak of things rather than a total rethink to me.

silver but i cant magic up more time in the day to get stuff done - the table needs to be set, the room needs to be tidied and i need to make dinner. to an extent i can give a bit more freedom but sometimes things need to be done on time! they have to tidy up before dinner each day, its not like it should be a suprise to them
But couldn't you ask him whether he'd prefer to set the table, whilst the others tidy, this would have the advantage of separating him from sibling who annoys him.
I do think his 'it's unfair' comments are maybe coming his way of trying to articulate feelings of over-controlled now that he is older, and being lumped in with the other 2 on tasks. Are you expecting him to tidy up mess made by others? I would feel that was unfair too.
Treat him as the more mature one, and he will behave in a more mature way.

What a refreshing thread, OP, genuinely looking for input and taking it on-board. Op sounds like he's more likely to respond to the positive, as others have mentioned. Personally, I'm not a fan of the mumsnet/supernanny approach of rewards/punishment and with a child like yours or mine, it's simply not effective. I read somewhere that a punishing adult is like a bully to a child- 'Do X or else...', and the punishment worsens. It resonated with me anyway. It's hard to give a perfect 'this will always work in the moment formula but my advice is to try and connect through laughter/play/conversation- whatever suits you two Best- outside of these hairy times. When the time is right, talk about a difficulty, or an expectation ahead, during or following these positive times -'I know you feel dd winds you up at times, that must be hard.' Allow time for him to talk and vent. Allow all feelings even if you believe she's not intending to do it before maybe giving her perspective or discussing a plan for next time. The incredible years programme talks about an ignore muscle when you want to block out something that you can't stop...he might like this and he can make his ignore muscle stronger with practice. Hard as it is in the moment, try to be on his side, while still being firm about expected rules and behaviour. I find phrases like 'I can see you're finding this hard, I'm going to help you, I won't let you, I can tell you're very angry' help me to frame the situation.

gybe i will work on the quiet voices. one of my biggest struggles is not to be 'shouty mum' so it is hard for me.

Silver you're right, at present they all tidy then all set the table but there is no reason at all i cant alternate - DTs tidy one night while DS1 sets the table then switch. so obvious now you say it!

heygirl yep, i will focus on trying to understand the underlying issues with him and help him articulate his feelings better. i like the ignore muscle idea too.

so tonight when they come in i will explain what is expected and set seperate tasks for them, keeping DS1 and DD1 apart. i will make it clear that if it is not done then it will need to be done in his gaming time and that it is his choice when he does it.

so a plan. of sorts!

When my DS was younger he could be very stubborn-
I found by giving him the choice and the consequences it somehow clicked with him. Think you do have to try various strategies as different things motivate different DC...but it worked for my very stubborn DS.
I learned it in a parenting course.
For example:
"DS I have asked you to tidy the playroom. It's your choice-but if you do not do as i have asked then you are choosing to give up your screen time (or whatever the penance is) it's up to you"
Very matter of fact. And somehow it wasn't a power struggle as he felt he was choosing with eyes open.
The behaviour I was trying to stop was coming back down repeatedly after being put to bed. After I tried this it took a couple of nights and he stopped.
Good luck!!

Agree 're matter of fact, which as you say op can be challenging ! Ahaparenting has articles 're calming yourself, that to me is everything. Expect the challenges perhaps and be ready! I would try and chat one on one in a supportive way about your plan if you can. Good luck!

Lookat...

I just remembered something else.

My two were bickering so badly one day I just thought "I've had enough" so I shut myself in the kitchen, boiled the kettle, made myself a cup of tea and drank it. By the time I'd finished they were best pals again. If I'd stepped in, it would have still been going on. Leaving them to it doesn't work everytime, but for me, it works more often than I'd have thought.

(Good job I spell checked this, the "shut myself in the kitchen" had an 'i' in it not a 'u'!)

OP, the one thing that sprang out at me from your original post was that the initial consequence seemed to come as a surprise for him... In that you didn't initially say 'Tidy up by xx time or you will lose privileges.' Instead the two weren't explicitly linked until after the sanction. Next time, I'd maybe apply a to step approach. All children asked to tidy by a certain time... Then obedient child allowed screen time or whatever as a treat, while the other two have to tidy by a new set time with the threat of losing privileges if they don't. Once all tidy, then a reward for everyone.

My two bicker in the car all the time - of the he's looking out of my window at my car variety. It helps me to imagine a glass panel (like in a chauffeur driven limo) sliding up so I can see them but not hear. They need to use indoor voices and I do quieten them if they get shouty but their conversation/argument is theirs to sort out.