To believe that sex is not 'assigned' at birth, but observed?

[Splandy]

I filled in a form for British gymnastics yesterday and was asked whether my child's gender identity matches the sex he was assigned at birth. I started a thread about this elsewhere and other people said that they have also had this question on forms. Upon asking, one person was told that it is a result of new government regulations coming in, meaning they have to ask it.

Does anybody know what these regulations are? Is there anybody who genuinely believes that sex is assigned at birth rather than observed? If so, could you explain why? I am very concerned that something so clearly untrue is being slipped in under the radar. There was no option to disagree with the question and any answer implied that I agree with what the question states: that sex is assigned at birth.

Would be especially interesting to hear from midwives/doctors.

To clarify, I am talking about your biological sex. Not gender.

So hypos padias means not a boy. Oh come on people GET A GRIP

Sonya is demonstrating perfectly the problem with the term ‘assigned’

Oh ffs

No one's "assigned" anythung

You are biologically one or the other. Occasionally further investigation may be required but that's pretty rare.

Perhaps if as much effort went into breaking the ideas of stereotypes as they do into 're wording everything until people are PC'd out of their own existences there wouldn't be a need for any of this?

"their gender is female, they got assaigned the wrong sex which doctors are now correcting"

This seems a good time to remember the basic definitions:

Male/Female are SEX.
Feminine/Masculine are GENDER.

Dictionary definitions:
Male = Of the sex that can make semen.
Female = Of the sex that can make eggs or bear young.
Woman = Adult human female
Man = Adult human male.

Your child was and is Male. There is no surgery or hormones in the world in the year 2017 that can change the sex of your child. Those affect cosmetic changes - bigger breasts, less body hair, surgically created body parts, etc.

They can't change Sex. Your child was, still is, and always will be OF the sex that CAN make semen and never OF the sex that CAN make eggs or bear young.

Having said that, I fully support anyone's right seek happiness through modifying their bodies as they see fit, whether it's passing 5 hours/day in the gym, or with botox, cosmetic surgery, hormones, whatever. If surgically altering genitals etc to resemble the opposite sex is what will make your child happy, more power to you. I hope it works.

This thread is both hilarious and terrifying!

Happy Halloween!

It's nothing to do with people who have the condition of being intersex and repeatedly beg to be left out of the whole discussion.

Sex is a fact. An observable, scientific, unalterable fact. Like the earth being round and dinosaurs having roamed the earth.

This is part of a political agenda to make biological fact 'transphobic' and something we're not allowed to mention. It's the equivalent of being legally tied into flat earthing or creationism, or believing in fairies.

Anyone can be any gender, it's fluid, it's up to them, it varies over time, place and culture.

Everyone has a fixed biological sex save for the very, very few who medically are intersex. However we don't insist that because a very very few humans are born without fully formed legs that the human race therefore isn't bipedal.

A trans person can identify as any gender they want, good on them.

I will not lie and say that there's such a thing as a lady dick, or assigned sex at birth, or that sex and gender are the same thing, or that a transwoman is a biological woman.

If that's the case why even bother with the word 'trans'?

She has a large clit, we don't call it a penis and is saying to get srs

Fair enough, Sonya, I wouldn't expect a parent raising a child as a girl to refer to their genitalia as a "penis".

But presumably you would not expect a biologically male child to be allowed to participate/compete in women's gymnastics?

Sex is an observable series of charactistics (phenotype); it also refers to your genotype, your xx or xy chromosomes. That how biologists classify sex.
Likewise for intersex.
No one is assigned anything at birth. Sex is determined at the point of conception.

"No one is assigned anything at birth. Sex is determined at the point of conception."

Not really. Gene mutations proliferate as the cell divides after fertilization.

Sex gene effects occur from around 6 weeks after conception and biological sex is an expression of various genes. According to those genes (which are in nearly all cases linked to being XY or XX) the foetus will develop as male or female.

Sex is genetic but not strictly determined at conception.

As you say, pisacake, sex is determined in utero, genetically, and not "assigned" willy nilly by whoever medical practitioner happens to be there at birth.

"assigned" willy nilly

This is a splendid turn of phrase here. Someone looking at a baby and assigning a nil willy score is just wonderfully apt.

Sex is assigned at birth, you either have male genitalia or female genitalia. Gender is observed.

I rather think it is the other way around. I'll fix it for you:

*Sex is observed at birth, you either have male genitalia or female genitalia. Gender roles are social constructs, imposed on men & women, so as to maintain unequal power hierarchy of patriarchy.

What a crazy thread! With very few exceptions, you are born either male or female. Called is 'assigned', implies a choice. You may 'choose' to be a different gender, but you can't choose your sex! I think that gymnastics is an area of sport where transgender people are starting to enter female sports to the detriment of female competitors. Knowing their birth sex helps to manage this. Although calling it 'assigned' is clearly the wrong term.

Pisacake!!!!The sex of the child is determined at fertilisation by whatever sperm fertilises the egg.
This is basic biology. I suggest you look this up in any textbook on mammals.

Other have said it but sex isn't always clear at birth. This is true for certain intersex individuals as well as certain medical conditions.

YABVU

I think describing online baby genitalia at birth is abusive. Please can we desist? Especially the use of the word clit. I find that offensive.

999 what's your emergency dealt with men calling the emergency number to tell the operatives, only the female ones, that they were wanking.

"Pisacake!!!!The sex of the child is determined at fertilisation by whatever sperm fertilises the egg.
This is basic biology. I suggest you look this up in any textbook on mammals."

It's not that basic.

"Sex differentiation is a complex process that results in the formation of male or female internal and external genitalia. It is the result of interactions between the sex-chromosome complement of the conceptus, gene products which direct the development and migration of germ cells and gonadal hormone production which determines the phenotype. There are three major components involved in sex determination: the chromosomal sex, the gonadal sex and the phenotypic sex.

The complex process of sex differentiation and determination results in the formation of male or female internal and external genitalia. The process is the result of interaction between the sex-chromosome complement of the conceptus, gene products that direct the development and migration of the germ cells to the urogenital ridge, the formation of the gonads and their differentiation towards testes or ovaries and gonadal hormone production which determines the phenotype—the external genitalia."

"Thus, the three major components in sex differentiation are:

1.chromosomal sex, determined at fertilization (XY being male and XX female);
2.gonadal sex, including ovary and testis; development begins around 6–7 weeks after fertilization;
3.phenotypic sex, determined by hormonal influence on external and internal genitalia."

This is true for certain intersex individuals

Who repeatedly plead for people to stop using them as The Cause.

I'll say it again, slowly, This Crap Has Nothing To Do With Sensitivity To People With Intersex Condition . This is about Trans politics being insidiously pushed and normalised to the point where the implication is that it's a done deal and can't be questioned.

Pisacake you need to go and study some biology.
This is madness: biology and medical textbooks haven’t changed recently. You are just very confused. You can cut and paste random facts if you like but the facts haven’t changed. Are you also a climate change denier?

Thanks for all the posts, I can see that people are mostly agreeing with me though. To be honest, the reason I stared this thread here is to get the opinions of people who aren't into feminism/the whole transgender debate. To those who talked about this thread being crazy etc, you are right and this is actually happening! This is a real thing that is really happening. I don't believe that most people will agree with the idea that sex is assigned, yet it is now being included in forms as though this is a globally accepted fact. I assume people find that alarming. I am not happy to pretend that biological sex doesn't exist or is assigned.

I see that some people have picked up on it being used for specific gymnastics purposes. I understand your thinking but it has also featured in a form for joining the national trust. Another poster, when questioning British gymnastics, was told that they are now required to ask it, so they haven't chosen to ask it for specific gymnastic purposes. If anybody could shed some light on exactly which government legislation they could be talking about, I would be very grateful.

Pisacake - I think you are referring to development of sex characteristics after fertilisation where a developmental disorder may lead to an intersex condition. However the chromosomes still determine the sex at fertilisation.

Intersex conditions have been co-opted by transactivists for political purposes and to make people think it's possible to have a male reproductive system and yet always have been a female. I think many people are ending up very confused - like Sonya.

In short:
baby has vagina = female or possible intersex condition but definitely not male
baby has penis = male or possible intersex condition but definitely not female.

It's vulva not vagina that determines the sex of a female. The vagina isn't really inspected!

I wasn't talking about inspections. The same statement applies to children and adults and to uterus, testes etc.