Renato Mariotti*@renato*_mariotti
THREAD: What does news that Papadopoulos supervisor and Trump co-chair Sam Clovis testified before the grand jury last week tell us?
1/ Today @nbcnews reported Clovis was interviewed by Mueller’s team and testified before the grand jury last week:
www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/top-trump-campaign-aide-clovis-spoke-mueller-team-grand-jury-n816106
2/ A lawyer for Clovis confirmed that he was the “supervisor” of Papadopoulos identified in the charging document.
3/ Although Clovis testified, he is minimizing the role of Papadopoulos via his attorney and disputing some of what Papadopoulos said:
In a statement, Toensing's office said Clovis set up a national security committee in the Trump campaign that included Papadopoulos, "who attended one meeting and was never otherwise approached by the campaign for consultation."
She disputed a suggestion in the Papadopoulos documents that he was told by Clovis that a top campaign priority was improving relations with Russia.
4/ There were some explosive emails in the charging document between Papadopoulos and Clovis:
In August 2016, according to court documents, Papadopoulos told Clovis about his efforts to organize an "off the record" meeting with Russian officials.
"I would encourage you" and another foreign policy adviser to the campaign to "make the trip, if it is feasible," Clovis responded.
5/ It is odd that Clovis would encourage Papadopoulos to meet with the Russian government. But now he minimizes that as well:
In the statement, Toensing said the Trump campaign had a strict rule prohibiting travel abroad on behalf of the campaign, but said that Clovis would have had no authority to stop Papadopoulos from traveling in his personal capacity.
6/ The story also indicates that Clovis does not intend to withdraw himself from consideration for Undersecretary of Agriculture.
7/ His nomination was already controversial because of his scant qualifications for the job and his denial of the science of climate change.
8/ Senator Roberts, Chairman of the Committee, described him as “cooperative” and still supports his nomination.
9/ All of this tells me a few things. First, the lawyer for Clovis thinks that he does not have significant criminal liability.
10/ If she did, she would have him withdraw himself from consideration. She’d also tell him not to testify or be interviewed.
11/ He’s also not “cooperating” with Mueller in the way a prosecutor would use that term. A flipper wouldn’t publicly minimize his conduct.
12/ He also wouldn’t publicly contradict the government’s other witness. So while Clovis is certainly someone Mueller is looking at closely,
13/ he doesn’t have the goods on Clovis at this time, and his lawyer (who knows more than we do) doesn’t think he ever will.
14/ If she was very worried about the downside for Clovis, she would pursue a much more cautious approach.
15/ It’s certainly possible that Clovis and his lawyer are acting irrationally, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
16/ Regardless, there can be no serious question that Mueller hasn’t flipped Clovis at this time. /end