To ask if anyone in rl has ever actually met anyone who is 'offended by a poppy?

[Whatsername17]

My Facebook feed is full of memes declaring that people are going to 'wear their poppy with pride and they don't care who they offend'. My nan is the latest culprit and I've called her out on it. Cue lots of her friends spouting racist bollocks about people not being able to sell them blah blah. My nan spouting shit about what a good heart I have because I can't see the bad in people. I'm 34. I'm not a fucking child. And breathe!

Where do you work, martha?

I work in a shop. My co workers tell me every year i am glorifying murder. I just ignore them and let them get on with it. Its their choice to feel how they want.

But I also hate all the glittery crystal poppys etc.

Never.

On this thread the point being it's not about British nationalism. Lots of solders from many nations died. The poppy symbolises commemoration not nationalism. By saying "I'm Irish" you make it about nationalism.*

No, Irish people on this thread are telling you their issues with the poppy, and you are refusing to listen.

The issue is not with those who fought in the world wars, the problem (my one anyway) is with those who fought against my country and our freedom. Who are you to tell me I'm wrong on that? I don't want to commemorate the Black and Tans, the Auxiliaries, those who committed atrocities in NI (on either side). That is how it feels for me.

The poppy symbolises many things to many people. You can put something out into the world, but how other people perceive and react to it will depend on their own background and experiences. They aren't wrong. Refusing to accept an alternative point of view however - that's wrong.

@Moussemoose - taken from the British Legion website :

The Legion advocates a specific type of Remembrance connected to the British Armed Forces, those who were killed, those who fought with them and alongside them

It is clear from that the remembrance is of the British military and those who fought with them. It does not include those who fought against them.

Yes, Britain declared war as Germany did not withdraw from Poland. However, it was ultimately to protect British interests by preventing an expanding German empire, rather than any altruism on the part of the British.

RavenWings

I understand your point of view. I have heard it many times. I have listened. I accept you believe it. I just don't agree with it.

Making a Commonwealth symbol all about one nation is nationalistic.
By focusing on the ills done to one nation it becomes nationalistic.

Now if you are happy with that, lovely but it is often nationalism that causes wars.

theymademejoin

Declaring war Germany in 1939 and staying in the war after Dunkirk were regarded by many as against British interests.

I am aware of the British Legion's stance which is why I linked the War Graves Commission to my point.

British history is full of examples of Britain behaving very, very badly. WW2 was not one of these examples. The Irish decision to not help and to not join WW2 - at any point even when we knew of the atrocities - was and is shameful.

Waving Irish nationalism is as problematic as British nationalism. That being the case the focus should be on commemorating the loss and the suffering and not celebrating anything.

I think the poppy rising from the mud of Flanders symbolises the loss and the hope rather well.

Then you need to accept that you trying to twist about the Irish perspective (by referring to DeValeras actions in the war etc), isn't an accurate portrayal of how I and others feel about the poppy. It does commemorate those who fought against my country - it also commemorates many who fought for a great cause. But I cannot ever support those who fought against my country.

The atrocities that were done to Ireland have not been completely recognised or atoned for. If we're talking about nationalism...well, between Ireland and Britain that's no contest really.

It is not wrong for an Irish person to not want to wear the poppy and commemorate the dead who were against their own State. If there was an alternate symbol that did not include them, great. But that option isn't there. It being a Commonwealth symbol does not change my mind on it. My country is not in the Commonwealth, I'd strongly resist us ever entering the Commonwealth. Why would I want to wear it?

Nobody is making a commonwealth symbol about one country. We are simply stating why a symbol that commemorates those who committed atrocities against the Irish, and many other nations (e.g. the boer war, the mau mau uprising, atrocities in India) can be deemed offensive.

It's interesting that almost everyone on this thread who has experienced any kind of negativity about the poppy has experienced it because they choose not to wear one.

So perhaps the bullshit memes on social media should be changed to reflect that!

The poppy is sold by the British Legion. They are very clear as to what it represents.

And while ireland was officially neutral in WW2, it was a very partisan neutrality.

Britain would have had to sue for peace to withdraw from the war after Dunkirk. Not something that would have been in their interest.

I have yes 😊

Maybe Mousse should go and tell James McClean he's being too nationalistic by not wearing a poppy and that his nationalism can lead to wars. Y'know, the James McClean from Derry, who grew up on the estate where many of the people killed in Bloody Sunday came from... that'd go well wouldn't it?

theymademejoin

The UK suing for peace after Dunkirk was a very realistic option and was discussed seriously at Cabinet level. Hitler would have been more than happy to have a peace with Britain - like he did with Ireland.

I don't want to get into details about Irish neutrality but do some research on the way Irish soldiers who fought in WW2 were treated after the war. A poppy appeal would have really helped those Irish veterans.

My point being history isn't always what you have been taught. Nationalism is nearly always crap. Any sentence that involves the phrase "I don't do x because I'm " is nearly always wrong.

Nationalism - any nationalism - is best avoided.

RavenWings

The British government committed atrocities in Ireland that were shameful.

Yep - that still doesn't make any nationalism right.

I won't wear a poppy but I'm not offended by those who do. It just seems to me it's become less about commemorating and more about hero worship of the armed forces. I don't think fighting and killing is something to hero worship. I respect the vital role in protecting our country but the job is more and more hero worshipped which I can't understand. Most 'battles' these days could and should be fought with discussion and compromise but of course let's get the big guns out and destroy another country in the name of creating stability.

My Great Grandfather died fighting in WW1. He was sent in as cannon fodder into the Battle of the Somme. This still happens and instead of learning from it we continue to train young people to fight in the name of being a hero.

But the poppy does not just commemorate the world war dead. It includes and supports all the Armed Forces - some of those who committed atrocities in Ireland (and other places) meet that criteria.

Is that not nationalistic? Surely they should be giving that money raised to any soldier in need of support?

So choosing not to wear a poppy because you have issues with war is very different from "I don't wear a poppy because I'm Irish".

One is a moral position and one is nationalistic.

Refusing to wear a poppy for nationalistic reasons is the same as wearing one for nationalistic reasons. Both make me very uncomfortable.

The poppy is a nationalist symbol as it commemorates those who fought on one side only. Yes, nationalism leads to war. British nationalism has led to many wars, including those against Ireland. I don't think that is anything to be proud of or to commemorate.

Commemorating all who died in conflicts and hoping that it will never happen again would be an honorable position. However, as stated by the British Legion, that is not what the poppy symbolises.

So let's see. It's fine for the British Legion to sell poppies in remembrance of war dead, and to use that money to support British ex servicemen (and tbh, I have no problem with this - I just want no part of it).

However, it is not fine for someone to not want to wear a poppy because of not supporting what some of those ex servicemen (and their government) may have done to their country, or because they feel uncomfortable wearing a symbol that commemorates past atrocities done to their country.

Yeah, that really doesn't add up 🤔😂 Seems like nationalism is fine for one side but not the other!

Choosing not to wear a poppy because it commemorates those who committed atrocities against my countrymen is not nationalistic. It is refusing to believe that those who committed atrocities against my countrymen and many others deserve to be commemorated by me.

I’m Irish descent and we never wear poppies even though nearly all my ancestors, especially on dad’s side, served in the military in both world wars.

It’s giving power and importance to those who quite happily collaborate to send and to continue sending us to senseless deaths. We will wear a bit of rosemary though.

Yes, members of my department (academia) vocally not in favour of poppy-wearing as apparently it is colonial, English nationalist etc. etc. If you wear one, people are embarrassed.

My Fb feed full of similar urging pple not to unthinkingly commemorate Europe's empire wars etc.

I think these folk would say they are 'offended' by it, as they are by so very, very many other things.

MPSW what is the purple poppy?!