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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To urge you all to write to your MPs?

124 replies

OrderMeACurry · 21/10/2017 17:30

I know this has been done before but I was inspired to start this thread whilst in the middle of writing yet another bloody letter to mine after he decided he was going to ignore my last two.

Now that Theresa May has announced that she backs the gender identity bill and wants to de-medicalise trans sexuality (great, thanks for that! Hmm) I really do fear that it is very highly likely that this will go through.

So if you've written to your MP already, please do so again and if you haven't then it would be great if you did. This really is getting urgent now.

Now if you excuse me, I must go bang my head against a wall.

OP posts:
Helpmegetoverthisplease · 21/10/2017 23:06

I wrote to my MP. I received an incredibly patronising letter in response.

Rumandraisin1 · 21/10/2017 23:06

CherryChasingDotMuncher

This thread has some sample letters:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2995738-Gender-ID-bill-Gender-Critical-To-Do-List?pg=1

DJBaggySmallpox · 21/10/2017 23:12

I wrote to my MP concerned about the impact on Muslim women being able to access a doctor, on Rape Crisis and Womens DV shelters - which women fund btw - and he sent a cut and paste reply stating that people who think that way need re-educating.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 21/10/2017 23:14

A lot of Labour MPs seem to be sending a template reply.

Hmm
ALittleBitOfButter · 21/10/2017 23:15

Transactivists always say puberty blockers are benign and give children a choice, and a chance to delay their decision making.
However, if 97% and in some studies 100% of these children stay trans, then there is no choice.
We know from the countless detransitioning stories that there is regret, that mistakes are made. Puberty blockers prevent choices, not create them.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 21/10/2017 23:21

This is an article about the
health problems caused by Lupron.

The other thing, and this is equally tragic, is that because they don't go through puberty these people are left with children's genitals which makes genital surgery much more complicated because there's so little to work with. And all of this can come from a decision made in primary school.

SilverySurfer · 21/10/2017 23:28

Thank you for the memory jog OP - I wrote to my MP a while ago but apart from an acknowledgement, have received no actual reply. I shall chase him up tomorrow.

TweeBee · 21/10/2017 23:40

Many thanks all. I meant to write in August but it slipped off my to do list. Have emailed now, thanks to all the wise posters who helped me think of what to say.
When is the vote? Do we know a date for it?

TweeBee · 21/10/2017 23:43

Don't suppose anyone knows any short, well written articles or things that could be shared on Facebook to raise awareness? Links above seemed to just explaining what the change is but not really why it should be a cause for concern.
I have several friends who are very keen for this.
Thanks.

Datun · 21/10/2017 23:43

JustPutSomeGlitterOnIt

How has this not been publicised more?

Because every single time someone tries to talk about it they are no platformed. If they have talked about it in the past and want to talk about something totally different, they are still no platformed. Greer, Bindel, Bellos - they’re actually too numerous to list.

The line is that even discussing it is claiming transpeople don’t actually exist. And therefore any violent reaction is entirely justified.

I personally watched this happen in real time on the train on the way to the talk connected to the speakers corner violence.

I hadn’t been told where the venue was, because the original venue had pulled out due to threats. So they were keeping the new venue secret.

I watched, on transactivist websites, calls to stop this talk from happening. As no one knew where the meeting was to be held, just to meet speakers corner first, there was a military organisation to call every possible venue within walking distance. Pubs, clubs, conference centres, etc. They were told how to pretend they were the conference organisers in order to ascertain, by deception, whether the meeting was to be held at that particular venue. As each venue said it wasn’t, it was ticked off and the next venue was called.

Fortunately, they didn’t call the actual venue. When I got to speakers corner, people were surreptitiously given a piece of paper with the postcode of the venue written on it. Seriously. It would’ve been farcical, had not been so concerning that this was necessary.

We were told to all leave separately in order that we were not followed.

Nonetheless, someone was and they found out where the venue was. Fortunately they weren’t allowed in. The police had to be called and they just created a huge commotion throughout the duration of the talk, outside. So much so, the neighbours complained and the talk had to be curtailed.

The most chilling part is that they refused to talk. I tried. They were chanting we don’t debate with hate. They have absolutely no interest in a debate being held. Because they know, full well, that the more this is publicised, the more people are going to have a wtf reaction.

People quite genuinely mistrust what feminists are saying. They sincerely think it’s an exaggeration. Because no one is allowed to speak about it.

Although I have a zillion questions that I would like answered, the one I mentioned upthread will do.

What safeguards would be put in place which changes the crime of indecent exposure to a legitimate presence purely by dint of self identifying as a woman?

Sallystyle · 21/10/2017 23:47

This can't go through, right?

I just need some hope that it is all going to turn out ok.

I was talking to my daughters about this and the thought scares them too.

I gave up on sharing it on FB. As I said on the other thread I'm just accused of being a bigot if I speak out against it.

DJBaggySmallpox · 21/10/2017 23:47

TweeBee the SAGES link is a good factual one to share;
Also, the Korean Winter Olympics had abolished standards for womens events. Anyone can enter them. Womens sports are finished.

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Datun · 21/10/2017 23:58

TweeBee

If you go onto the FWR boards, on here, you will see lots of threads that contain excellent articles.

In the meantime, a group called A Woman’s Place UK is doing some sterling work. There are many, many Facebook groups trying to fight this, but, unfortunately most of them are secret so they are not infiltrated.

I personally, I have seen at least six feminist Facebook pages shut down due to transactivism.

A Woman’s Place has published a UK guide for non-legal bods about the upcoming law. Link below.

www.aroomofourown.org/a-uk-guide-for-non-lawyers-about-protecting-women-only-spaces-june-2016/?utm_content=buffer28104&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

This is a link to their Facebook page.

m.facebook.com/womansplaceuk/#!/womansplaceuk/

For those of you worried about children, Transgendertrend is a site set up for parents of trans children. They are exceptionally concerned about what this means for youngsters.

www.transgendertrend.com/

Because of the violence at speakers corner, people are waking up to this. If you do nothing else, write your MP tomorrow. Do not leave it any longer than that. Things are coming to a head.

If you letter ends up being a mini novel (because it will), don’t worry. Just send something.

Even asking how any provision, anywhere can be made for any women if the legal term women cannot be defined, is a good question.

Datun · 22/10/2017 00:03

U2HasTheEdge

I thought like you. I thought it must be impossible, right?

Two or three days ago Theresa May spoke at a Pink News dinner and said she was backing self identification because she wants to demedicalise the process.

Jeremy Corbyn has said he will support this law.

I would very much like to ask
Jeremy Corbyn how he can identify a need for women only train carriages on the one hand, and then support a law which will allow any man to access them.

It really is that stupid.

Bucketsandspoons · 22/10/2017 00:04

Datun from what I read, the answer would be bluntly 'none'. No safeguards needed and no crime committed as anyone self declaring as a woman is and therefore can expose away in a women's space where others are undressing. Fault lies with the person feeling threatened or offended, and re education is needed.

Once this goes through legally it will be very difficult if not impossible to rescind or change no matter how serious the outcomes. please at least ask your MP to vote against this until it has been properly researched and properly and honestly debated, this has potentially massive consequences and is truly stupid to rush into.

I do realise I'm saying this about the government that got us into Brexit, but frankly that ought to be still more of a reason to stop, think. Research and plan before merrily joining hands and leaping off a cliff.

Datun · 22/10/2017 00:08

This is an informative threat. Currently on AIBU.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3064048-does-our-pm-understand-this-at-all-trans?msgid=72802244

DJBaggySmallpox · 22/10/2017 00:11

Its already happening;
www.eadt.co.uk/news/judge-criticises-lack-of-specific-treatment-for-women-who-download-child-porn-after-ardleigh-woman-20-is-found-with-1-200-indecent-images-1-4733506

archive.is/ZJrKd

Alice Smith is trans. This crime has been recorded as having been comitted by a woman.

Sallystyle · 22/10/2017 00:16

Datun

I'm trying to hang onto some hope, but it seems pretty pointless to have any really.

My son had this debate with someone the other night. My son is gay and was told that he should be more understanding because being gay is the same as being trans and he couldn't understand how my son could have issues with self identifying when he is gay.

The world is going fucking mad.

TweeBee · 22/10/2017 00:17

DJ and Datun - thanks

Datun · 22/10/2017 00:35

U2HasTheEdge

Your son’s friend needs to know that the trans ideology insists there is no such thing as a homosexual orientation.

Being homosexual its not an longer about being attracted to the same sex, but the same gender. So your son should be perfectly happy dating a transman, with a vagina, as long as she identifies a man.

Of course, due to the inherent power dynamic between men and women, gay men are not being targeted by transmen. Yet.

But lesbians are being relentlessly targeted by transwomen. And being called bigoted for not considering a lesbian with a penis.

See Riley J Dennis. See the cotton ceiling.

And of course, if there is no such thing as a homosexual orientation, neither is there such thing as a heterosexual one.

I, a straight woman, should also feel fine having sex with a transman with a vagina.

Your son has every right to feel outraged by this erasure. And he should tell his bloody friend.

Datun · 22/10/2017 00:35

Sorry. I’m cross with his friend, not your son!

StepAwayFromGoogle · 22/10/2017 09:52

OP, I used to work in government lobbying. One of the best ways to strategically oppose a bill is to try to engage with the relevant All-Party Parliamentary Groups. A list is available here: publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmallparty/170928/contents.htm
They are cross-party members of MPs and Lords. You can write to the members or arrange to meet with them. You may be able to persuade them to let you speak at a meeting. It sounds like it is important to get trans people to engage too given that vital funding to support them will be cut.
Do you know if any of the groups opposing are already involved in lobbying?

Rumandraisin1 · 22/10/2017 10:12

What safeguards would be put in place

Yes, I'm afraid the answer is 'none'. I used to think that any changes that appeared to help trans people must be a good thing and just blithely assumed that our politicians would make sure that safeguards were put in place to protect women and girls.

I then realised that

a) trans no longer just means people like the nice, non-threatening transsexuals that I've known over the years ( ie people with body dysmorphia who were physically transitioning) and included a whole range of other people including misogynistic, fetishists who are quite happy with their bodies but believe they have a 'girl dick' and that they are entitled to women's spaces (and bodies - see the 'cotton ceiling' for the arguments that lesbians are oppressing them if they won't suck their penis). I had started to encounter people in real life who didn't fit into the traditional view of transsexuals but somehow it just took me a while to piece it together

b) our politicians really haven't thought it through at all and weren't prepared to listen to women's concerns - and that the silencing of debate (from the no-platforming of well-regarded feminists by many universities, transactivists intimidating venues out of allowing debates to take place on their premises, the threats and actual use of violence against women who want to discuss these issues and - until recently - the almost blanket silence of the mainstream media on any of these concerns) was not a conducive environment for any well-thought-out, appropriate legislation to be developed.

This has been shared before but it's an article from the Times by Janice Turner, one of the few journalists who is writing about this issue, and it shows how little the politicians have thought about the rights of women and girls in all this. If anyone's struggling on what to write to their MP, I think it would be worth sending them a copy of this and asking them how they will ensure that the concerns raised are addressed when this legislation goes before parliament. If enough of us do it, hopefully it will encourage some of them to engage their brains.

Maria Miller gathers up her handbag and makes to leave: “I don’t think I’m happy about this. I think I’ve finished . . . I didn’t realise this was such a stitch-up.” I’ve been questioning Ms Miller about a report on transgender rights she produced last year as chairwoman of the women and equalities committee. The government has just announced that it will go to further consultation this autumn.

Many of its recommendations, to redress hate crime against transgender people, to improve access to NHS services and stop discrimination in employment (as seen in President Trump’s cruel, summary banning of up to 6,600 transgender US military personnel), are widely supported. But one proposal that seeks to change the very definition of “man” and “woman” has far-reaching implications.

Justine Greening, the equalities minister, announced her support this week for changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, echoing calls by Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader. At present a person who wishes to change gender legally must be 18, demonstrate they have lived in their chosen gender for two years, have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels they don’t feel they belong in their biological sex) and be questioned by an expert panel.

The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency.

Take this scenario: a man enters a female communal changing area, removes his clothes while women get undressed. Now they have a right to ask him to leave. Under gender self-definition, if he said “I identify as a woman” he would be entitled to stay. This, I stress, is unlikely to be a trans woman — many who use women’s changing rooms every day with discretion and no fuss — but could be a sexual predator exploiting the loophole. (There have been a growing number of cases in the US, including a man in Seattle using women’s pool facilities claiming “the law has changed, I have a right to be here”.) Does Ms Miller not see why women fear a conflict of rights?

“But 50 years ago, maybe ten years ago, people felt very uncomfortable about gay people showing their relationships in public but life has moved on.” This isn’t a question of feelings, however, but of physical safety and privacy which, as the author of another report on sexual abuse, she surely understands?

I show her a photograph of a bearded, male-born American called Danielle Muscato who dresses in men’s suits and ties, has made no attempt to transition but nonetheless “identifies as female” and insists on living in a women’s homeless shelter. On International Women’s Day he tweeted: “Some women have penises. If you’re bothered by this, you can suck my dick.”Alex Drummond is a lush-bearded British psychotherapist who claims to be a woman, without any transition, who is “expanding the bandwidth of gender.”

These people should be free from all abuse and discrimination, but do they have the right to women’s spaces? “There will be individuals who will try to use this as an abuse of the system but you cannot disregard the rights of 600,000 people in this country,” Ms Miller says, referring to an estimate of people who express unhappiness with their birth gender. But can you ignore the rights of 30 million women? “No. And nobody’s suggesting that that’s the case.”

So do you think that women and girls should have a right to object to male-bodied individuals undressing among them. “How an individual presents themselves is really up to them,” she says. “Nobody is saying this is an easy set of decisions. I think that is a legitimate part of the consultation.”

Ms Miller says that self-definition is misunderstood “as some amateurish way of trying to recognise somebody’s change. In our report we made it very clear that this would not simply be somebody being able to pull a form off the internet, sign it and call themselves a woman because that would be open to abuse.” Her committee envisaged each person receiving “psychological support . . . to make sure that they’re making the right decision for them” instead of “this quasi-medicalised panel which has brought great distress to transgender people”. She would not confirm that the new self-definition process would ever query an application.

How does she think this rule will effect the operation of women’s domestic violence refuges, several of which submitted concerns to her inquiry that clients would be distressed having fled brutal men if male-bodied individuals were granted access. In Toronto, Christopher Hambrook claimed to be a trans woman to access a refuge then raped residents. “These spaces carry out a risk assessment before individuals are allowed to use them and those that pose a risk to safety are not necessarily one gender.” But 90 per cent of violent crime and 98 per cent of sexual crime is committed by men. Trans women, such as Davina Ayrton, who raped a 15-year-old girl, have been convicted of offences seldom committed by natal females. Would self-identification mean these crimes would be registered as committed by women, skewing the figures? “It should be registered in the gender of the person when they committed the crime.” This would mean that if Katie Brannen, charged with twice raping a man in South Shields, is convicted that crime would be recorded on female statistics even though legally women cannot commit rape.

Sport is another problematic area: self-identification could destroy women’s competitions, allowing former-men with greater musculature and testosterone to dominate. In New Zealand a weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, has broken national records; in Canada the mountain biker Michelle Dumaresq dominated for years. “Those are already issues that professional bodies have to deal with. And again that is something which needs to be looked at in significant detail.”

I ask her about school sports. In Connecticut Andraya Yearwood, a male-bodied, moustachioed 15-year-old trans girl, has won state championships although she would have finished last in the boys’ competition. Does Ms Miller think this fair to the girl athletes? “Well, I think it’s a bit of a difficult one to answer because boys are not going through gender reassignment when they’re at school.” But what would you say to the girls who lost? “It’s a very difficult one to answer . . .”

She adds: “What I think we’re touching on here is that trans issues are something that still strike a nerve in British society.” Compiling her report she was moved by young trans folk “just trying to get on with their lives in a quiet manner . . . The idea of individuals being not of one gender or another is not a new thing.”

Yet this very idea of “non-binary” or “gender fluidity” is challenged by feminists. Because it assumes that being female is a narrow category: involving pink, make-up, girlie pursuits as opposed to the male world of noise, fun and muddy sports. Isn’t the epidemic of girls wanting to transition — they make up 1,000 out of the Tavistock clinic’s 1,400 referrals — a rebellion against society’s rigid gender strictures rather than a sign that they were “born in the wrong body” and require hormones? This is around the point at which Ms Miller threatens to leave. She relents and we talk a little longer. Although Ms Miller as equalities minister guided gay marriage through parliament, she is at heart a home counties conservative who in 2007 voted against regulations to stop discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. She voted to lower the abortion limit to 20 weeks and for a Nadine Dorries amendment to stop abortion providers such as Marie Stopes giving counselling.

She looks alarmed when I ask about these stances and instead seizes on the government’s decision — pushed by Labour’s Stella Creasy — to fund NHS abortions of women in Northern Ireland. “It is a sticking plaster for the short term. There should be equal rights for women across the UK.” But wouldn’t this mean overriding the devolved assembly, whose major party the DUP is in coalition with the Tories? “I think this should be seen as a human rights issue and I’m glad it is in front of the Supreme Court.”

What does she say to those who believe the government’s sudden announcement of trans reform is to counter bad publicity garnered by allying with the anti-gay marriage DUP or to win young votes. “Absolutely ludicrous!” she cries.

She says that her experience as a woman and a mother who has faced discrimination and sexism has made her receptive to the rights of minority groups such as trans people and their families. She puts the concerns of feminists about material changes to their rights and safety into the same category as religious objections, like those of the Christian bakers who refused to make a cake for a gay couple. “There are always jagged edges to the law which create tensions, and we are going into new territory here.”

Sallystyle · 22/10/2017 11:19

Datun

Being homosexual its not an longer about being attracted to the same sex, but the same gender. So your son should be perfectly happy dating a transman, with a vagina, as long as she identifies a man.

^^^

Bloody hell. This is all just so crazy isn't it? And scary.

I think he put up a decent argument as he has been very interested in this subject for a while now. He seemed pretty deflated though.

Rumandraisin1 · 22/10/2017 11:23

Among the many flaws of the Women and Equalities Committee's recommendations on this issue, they made a recommendation in their report to remove a restriction on the powers of the Equality and Human Rights Commission when actually no such restriction existed in the first place. This was based on evidence from the transactivist group Mermaids which was factually inaccurate.

4thwavenow.com/2017/10/21/should-mermaids-be-permitted-to-influence-uk-public-policy-on-trans-kids/

There are so many 'alternative facts' circulating from the transactivist lobby and they are being taken at face value by the people who legislate on our behalf while other voices, including women, feminists and actual experts on trans issues, are being ignored.

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