Another teacher complaint one

[Fink]

I was going to piggy-back on the currently active thread about a teacher picking on a pupil, but it seemed after reading a few pages that the advice might be different so here goes:

DD (7) feels she is being unfairly targeted by her teacher for minor misdemeanours. She is one of a small number of pupils she claims the teacher 'doesn't like' and singles out for punishment. Another parent in the class has independently told me that her child has told her the same thing, her child is not one of the ones targeted but told her parents that my child was. I know another parent who made a similar complaint last year about the same teacher and a complaint to the head has already been dealt with this year about her treatment of the whole class (from another parent, nothing to do with me).

I have tried to do what I can at home to reinforce good behaviour for DD (both carrot and stick approaches) and have discussed with her several times that if she doesn't do anything wrong, she can't be punished, so to try to keep her nose clean and not step out of line. I have also told her that I'm monitoring all the punishments she gets so that I can decide for myself whether it is unfair or not.

I don't want to claim that she's a perfect child and never puts a foot wrong, but she has not in the past been any worse than any other child of her age and yet is now receiving the brunt of the sanctions. Last year, for example, she got an official sanction once in the year (and I thought her teacher was quite decent and strict last year, definitely not a push over), this year she has already had four since September. I have no problem with her being sanctioned if she has genuinely misbehaved, but I want it to be in line with the punishments others in the class receive, not singling her out.

As an example, another child in the class told the teacher in front of the whole class that she was wrong about a fact (which she was and genuinely didn't know it) and got no punishment. My daughter (on a different day) told the teacher that she had missed out a step in the document she was explaining (which she had) and was shouted at not to interrupt and called rude and was put on warning for a sanction.

The only thing I can get from the teacher, who has complained to me about dd's behaviour, is that she questions adults and children. The teacher labelled this as 'rude' 'completely unacceptable', 'insolent', 'would not be tolerated' etc. but I wasn't able to judge whether she has genuinely been insolent or not since I wasn't given any specific examples. I asked dd herself to give me examples and one of them sounded fair enough (as in, I would have considered it rude): she questioned why the teacher was giving out merits for a very easy task, but all the others just sounded like she had been asking a real question about the work e.g. did she have to write in full sentences on a comprehension test?

She has lost her lunchbreak twice to re-do work because it didn't fulfil the rubric (leave a line between statements). On one occasion she had 4 pages torn out of her book by the teacher and had to re-write them. Not because the work was wrong but because she hadn't followed the instructions about where to leave lines. Again, I didn't undermine the teacher on this, just told dd that she should listen more carefully in the future, but it did seem petty.

She has been moved to sit at the front of the classroom next to the teacher for an indefinite period (presumably until someone else does something worse), lost her break and received a sanction for pushing another child's cardigan off her chair. Again, I'm not saying it was appropriate behaviour, but it does seem to have been unnecessarily harshly dealt with.

DD is getting very despondent and defensive, to the stage where she wants to give up trying to do right because she's going to get shouted at anyway. She has been in tears begging me to move her school or home school her. She has been almost completely put off school and I worry that she's on the verge of refusing.

So, finally getting to the point: AIBU to take some action or is dd really just out of line? If I do something, then what? Complain directly to the teacher or higher up? If IABU then how do I sort dd out? I appreciate that her behaviour at the moment is sometimes rude (e.g. the question about merits) but the friction with the teacher is only going to make it worse, not better, so I'll need some way to correct her myself.

If she can't or won't give examples I think you are well within your rights to ask for a meeting with her and either her phase leader or the deputy (maybe leave the HT till you've exhausted options)

I think she has a problem with your DD.

For the record, I have tried approaching the teacher to get her pov on two occasions but she has refused to give any details
And still the excuses keep on rolling in. Do you think this teacher has the time or spare mental capacity to log every specific detail of each incident of one rude child, among a class of 30? You seem able to take your dc's word that things happen the way they did, why can't you take the word of a professional adult, who really has more motivation to report back the bare facts than a child, who is often seen as disruptive at a low level?
If this isn't another PBP/troll thread, we really are raising a generation of entitled snowflakes.

@FritzDonovan, there’s no need to be so nasty. The OP is a teacher herself who’s trying to get to the bottom of what’s going on, so she can talk to her DD about it.

Some posters seem to get a perverse kick out of being unkind for no reason.

I think being "rude" is kind of difficult to give examples, though. It's not really something she did, it's more of the attitude, tone of the voice, way she speaks, or something like that.

I do feel sometimes that my ds is very rude. Some of his peers are very rude indeed the way they talk.
My ds's ex-cur teacher is very young and friendly. Sometimes I feel horrified with the way he talks to him. I wouldn't expect the teacher to tolerate that. And problem is, he doesn't realise he is being rude, because other children does that too.
Maybe the teacher and your dd has clash of personality, so she get picked up on those more than others.
But I do feel that you really need to address the issue now, when she is still young.

mittens, I'm not being nasty, I asked a genuine and relevant q, and the example I gave does read as an excuse to me. Fair enough if you didn't read it the same way.
I object to your insinuation that I only commented in order to be rude. I made a very valid point that if a child continues with low level disruptive behaviour, especially if it's a case of 'it's not what you say, but how you say it' (which a number of other ppl have brought up), it would be very difficult to come up with detailed incidents which would be enough to convince a disbelieving parent. Especially when put on the spot. If OP is a teacher, I'm surprised she doesn't realise this. What's next, asking for a log of every eye roll and nasty tone? Give me a break. (And that was deliberately sarcastic, not rude, in case you want to pick up on that too... )

The child is 7! If she is being that rude, the teacher won't need to log anything, she will easily remember the behaviour she is objecting to. She is with her class all day not like in a secondary school where she won't see the same pupil twice in a day.
She'll be able to remember the behaviour of a number of her pupils.
The OP is being fobbed off which is a ridiculous situation.

Its perfectly possible that all the children in a class know exactly what sanctions others get. They will know who has to stay in at break, they will know who has to stay in over lunch and its fairly common in primary schools to have some sort of behaviour chart on the wall. At my child's primary they had a weather chart - sunny was good behaviour, cloudy was a warning or low level misbehaviour and thunderstorm was sanction like losing golden time (again losing golden time is a very obvious sanction that all the others in the class will see and know about)
I've been teaching for almost 20 years and sad to say that yes some teachers pick on some pupils, yes some teachers do have favourites and while most try not to do either, it does happen. If you have a child that's gone from loving school to not wanting to go in the morning its your responsibility, as a parent, to look at all the reasons why - and that includes the possibility that there's an issue with the teacher.

As you are teacher and are volunteering at the moment have you ask the teacher if you can help out in you DC class

nanny not the specifics though, if every other comment is spoken in a particular 'tone', every request is questioned or everything not explicitly explained is said to be wrong. Not that I'm saying OP's do is doing that, I'm just giving an example.

*dc, not do

I will admit to having only read your OP and I am on the other thread and there are some similarities but I'm just thinking WTF? Who the fuck is training these teachers? I have never had one complaint (touch wood and thank God) about my daughter's teaching. I know the UK system is very stressed and exam focused. I suspect they have lost their way! Going only on your OP, and I will read back through the full thread and replies and opinions, but I would have to have a chat with the teacher to see whether there was something I could be doing to improve the situation, what dd would need to be doing (she sounds sprightly and I love that) and also what way the teacher sees as a way of going forwards! I know the teacher is not going to be wanting to reprimand a child constantly, so it would be in her best interests to work with you. I give up really. Not all the tea in China would convince me to work as a teacher. One little shyster is enough to be dealing with! ;)

The little shyster I'm referring to is my own btw. Just in case you think I'm referring to yours!

I'm a huge fan of good teachers and never once went in to complain when my dd was in primary school but I am seriously shocked at the people taking the teacher's side in this issue.

Let us assume that this child is every bit as bad as the teacher says, so what is the result the teacher wants and what is the result she is getting? All her punishments have not changed the child's conduct, that is for sure. Surely punishments should be aimed at achieving the desired conduct. As the child's mother, the OP would be very neglectful if she ignored this situation and let it continue as it is going.

Calling a 7 year old a 'low level disruptor is ridiculous & negative labelling.
If the child is a problem the teacher should talk to the parent asap, not take it out on the child. Children that age aren't going to understand the harsh treatment if they're singled out for punishment with no explanation. This teacher sounds out of her depth and slightly incompetent. Speak to the teacher direct but bring somebody with you, make sure you're very clear about the issues. If you can't do this then please take it to the head.
It may be gossip but sounds like she has form for scapegoating so it needs checking out asap.

This teacher sounds out of her depth and slightly incompetent
Because you would know that, based on the OP, jelly. Believe me, I've met a number of 7 year olds who can, and do, regularly disrupt a class with low level issues, whether it's purposeful or not. OP has had lots of useful advice and anecdotal information on similar situations. Labelling her dd OR the teacher based on scanty one sided information is rather unfair.

(but sadly what these threads tend to devolve into)

A number of things jumped out but I am going to say straight away you need to get the teachers side of the story first. Communication is really key in these situations.
Anything that is making a 7 year old not want to go to school is a cause for concern and needs tackling. This can be done without undermining the teacher. If it was a child in my class I would want to know. An unhappy child rarely makes for a well behaved child and this is possibly becoming a vicious circle.
Your child may well be causing low level disruption but there is usually a reason why. You need to work with the teacher to find positive strategies to motivate her and to get to the bottom of it. Ripping out work is never acceptable in my opinion and I would pull up any staff in my school who did this. Missing playtime is also a big no no. Playtime is so important to children to provide them with emotional down time, reset their vestibule systems and gross motor skills. Children who miss playtime rarely produce better work afterwards.
Your daughter is only 7 and if she is unhappy, regardless of whether some of that is of her own making you need to be her advocate.

Perhaps this "professional adult" is just a bully ?

Thanks everyone for your input, it's been very useful to help me reflect on the situation with more of a critical eye and have all the viewpoints on different sides. I've also spoken to a couple of my family members who help with dd's care (grandparents) to get a view other than my own about her behaviour at home & in general. I've also answered (to myself) all the questions people put on here.

I've basically decided a plan of action based on advice here and irl. It's complicated but if you wanted a simple version it would boil down to I'm going to monitor the situation before escalating it and in the meantime try to encourage dd to be squeaky clean and just try her best and make extra sure I clamp down on any rudeness at home (which isn't frequent).

I'm probably not going to comment on the thread again as I feel I've reached a resolution point in what my next actions will be etc. And tbh I don't have the time to be constantly monitoring a thread (I have thoroughly read all the replies so far). If people want to keep on commenting I'm not trying to stop you and I probably will keep reading, that's up to you.

Honestly, thank you all for your input.

Do teachers record punishments meted out and why?

Students can act differently with different members of staff

This is certainly true. Some teachers are much better than others at instilling discipline. I remember ds having a fabulous teacher in year one. She was strict but fair and in the whole time he was in her class, I never got collared after school to be told he had done anything untoward. She had the kids exactly where she wanted them.

Except for the 3 weeks when she had an operation and a supply teacher took over and acted as if he was the devil incarnate.

And then the following year, blow me, but the teacher in that class needed to have some time off for an op too, and he got the same supply teacher! A few parents expressed concerns at that point but there wasn't much the school could do. Thank goodness it was only a couple of weeks.

@Fink if you do read this - I was thinking about some clear examples of how your DD's behaviour could be seen to be disruptive from one viewpoint but acceptable from another.

Most obvious one to me is about following instructions/asking questions. At the start of every lesson/piece of work I make it very clear to my class that I will give the instructions and then answer any relevant questions at the end. Unfortunately there are always some students who think this doesn't apply to them and insist on waving their hands about or shouting out questions that - if they had waited as asked - wouldn't be needed as I would provide the answer as part of my instructions. This is disruptive as it wastes time and can be incredibly frustrating for the teacher.

The other obvious thing for me is very often not what is asked but how/when it is asked. Some pupils are aware that they are being rude/disrespectful but some genuinely aren't - this might be worth your time considering.

Hope that is some help.

As you are teacher and are volunteering at the moment have you ask the teacher if you can help out in you DC class

Inappropriate and usually (hopefully) discouraged.

Do teachers record punishments meted out and why?

Some (generally with older children) might have a chart recording every time they get a sanction as in our school it was 3 in one day meant a detention. You could also then see if they kept getting one or two every day (= low level disruption)